ANDY CROWE ● BILL YATES ● NICK WALKER ● HEIDI FOGELL

NICK WALKER:  Welcome to Manage This, the podcast by project managers for project managers.  This is our conversation about what matters most to you, whether you are a seasoned professional or just trying to get started with your project management certifications.  It’s our goal to help you improve, challenge you, motivate you, and, if possible, encourage you with stories from others in the profession.

I’m your host, Nick Walker, and with me are the experts at all this, Andy Crowe and Bill Yates.  And Andy, today we get a chance to draw on the experience of someone who has really an incredible diverse background.

ANDY CROWE:  You know, that’s the beauty of project management, Nick.  You pull from so many different disciplines.  It applies in so many different ways.  And it’s kind of fascinating when you get people from different disciplines together to look at how they can manage projects more effectively.

NICK WALKER:  Well, let’s introduce our guest.  Heidi Fogell is a Project Manager and Natural Resources Practice Leader for Amec Foster Wheeler in Kennesaw, Georgia.  She’s a biologist and has been an adviser on ecological issues and habitat assessments and has negotiated with regulatory agencies.  She performs wetland delineations, biological assessments, as well as hazardous waste investigations and remediation projects.  Heidi, welcome to Manage This.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Good morning.  Thank you for having me.

NICK WALKER:  Now you have a fascinating background.  You’ve dealt with fish population studies, surface water issues, sediment and soil projects, and other environmental tasks.  Since our audience can’t see you, I should probably tell them, no, she is not wearing a lab coat.  But how does a scientist get into project management?

HEIDI FOGELL:  Well, at the risk of sounding trite, it was about a boy.  I actually, when I was in grad school for marine biology at Florida Tech – the route that most people go is to work for a state or federal agency.  And I actually had the opportunity to work for an environmental consulting firm.  And that opportunity allowed me to stay where my boyfriend at the time was.  And so I took that opportunity and actually, through that, got lots of experience working in remediation projects in addition to the biological projects, and eventually moved up through the ranks and became a project manager.

NICK WALKER: You know, I always tell young people, life takes you places that you never expected, so sometimes it’s just good to go with the flow.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Yes.

NICK WALKER:  But that’s really taken you into a lot of places that maybe you hadn’t planned on, but allows you to bring kind of a unique set of skills to it.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Right, right.  You know, nobody expected a marine biologist to wind up in Kennesaw, Georgia.  It’s not as far away from the ocean as you can get, but not as close as you probably should be.

BILL YATES:  You could be in Oklahoma or Nebraska.

HEIDI FOGELL:  I could be.  I could be, but I’m not.

BILL YATES:  Heidi, give us a sense for what are some of the typical projects that you’re working on.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Typically right now I manage environmental remediation projects under the Superfund process, which is a federal regulation that cleans up old hazardous waste sites, usually where there is a known responsible party involved.  So that’s the bulk of my work right now.  But I also manage several smaller projects that support municipal and industrial clients for getting wetland impacts permitted or addressing impacts to protected species, basically addressing their environmental issues so that they can develop their projects responsibly, yet comply with regulations.

BILL YATES:  Got you.  There’s something unique that you bring to the table that I want to get into because when I was reading over your bio, just getting a sense for the type of work that you do, I’m getting this image of you with two hats.  One hat is one that I can totally relate to.  It’s the project manager, and the PM has to get things done.  The project manager commits the team to milestones and deadlines and due dates and deliveries and all these things, budgets.  And then there’s another hat that you wear which is this environmental consultant that kind of goes back to your roots of, whoa, slow down, you know, don’t hurry up, but slow down.  We need to assess and test and survey and run all the right – get all the right approvals and go through the right agencies.  So how do you wear those two hats?  How do you juggle that?

HEIDI FOGELL:  I dance a lot.

BILL YATES:  Okay.

HEIDI FOGELL:  But it’s actually part of – that’s the biggest part of being in the environmental consulting business.  It’s a very competitive business.  The companies that are in it range from small to large, but it’s a small community.  And, you know, we compete against the same people over and over again in different arenas.  So it’s important to stay on the top of your game.  So you have to be able to jump from one thing to the next.  And that was the hardest thing for me to learn when I came into environmental consulting because I was very much a start a project, work it through to the end, finish it, move on to the next thing.

BILL YATES:  Right.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Yeah.  I can’t do that anymore.  I have to touch 10 to 20 different things every day.  And that’s difficult to feel like you’re making progress.  But by taking small chunks, you actually make probably more progress than you would just sitting and focusing on something for a long time.

ANDY CROWE:  So, Heidi, I’m interested in this part, something you just said.  My wife is very much the same way that you are kind of wired, that she wants to start a project, just really grind on that particular project, and then put it in a binder, finish it, put it away, go to the next.  I am somebody, I enjoy the variety of skipping around.

BILL YATES:  Oh, yes, you do.

ANDY CROWE:  Well, no, I do.  And I have a lot of irons in the fire.  But I’m able, I guess I’m able to stop something and pick it back up the next day pretty well.  So that’s something I do well.  So how do you manage that, having to do that, but not being wired that way?  Do you have systems in place?  Is your world full of Post-it notes?  What does Heidi’s life look like?

HEIDI FOGELL:  I have a list.  I have a list, but that list has to be flexible, too.  I make my list at the end of the day before, what I think that I need to accomplish the next day.  And I do check my email pretty regularly to add and subtract from that list, and then adjust it in the morning.  And then at the end of the day I look back, and I say, oh well, I got two things done on the list, but I also accomplished eight other things.  So I think, to me, being organized is the best way to manage that; and then also making myself be flexible and realize that it doesn’t have to get done right away.

ANDY CROWE:  Out of all the technology and all the apps that have come out, I still have not beaten a paper list in terms of its effectiveness and just getting things done.

BILL YATES:  Right.

HEIDI FOGELL:  I can’t.  I need a paper list and a paper calendar.  I need to be able to see the month in front of me still.  Yeah.

BILL YATES:  There’s a pleasure that I get in taking that little item on a paper list and scratching it off and saying it’s done.

HEIDI FOGELL:  It’s absolutely thrilling to do that.

ANDY CROWE:  So let me find something out about you two because I’m to the point now where, if I do something that is not on my list, I write it down on the list for the sheer joy of getting to strike it off.

BILL YATES:  Oh yes.  That’s me.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Yeah.  I just raised my hand to that one, too.

ANDY CROWE:  I think they make medications that’ll treat the three of us.  But you know what?  We get things done, so good.

BILL YATES:  Let’s buy it in bulk.

HEIDI FOGELL:  That’s right.

NICK WALKER:  My problem is that I lose my list, and I have to make a brand new one, and it’s usually different from the original.

ANDY CROWE:  Heidi, tell me, as you approach a project, and this is something I’m always interested in, how do you sort of organize and approach it?  When you get assigned a new project, where do you begin?  How do you start?  How do you even begin to think about the overall deliverables and how you’re going to do it?

HEIDI FOGELL:  Oh.  Well, it really depends on the size of the project.  The larger projects we work really as big cohesive teams on.  So there’s a group of people planning these things.  And generally what happens, if it’s something that’s completely new, we get a Request For Proposal from a client.  And usually we’re competing against people.

So we actually – a bunch of people get in a room and sit down and plan it out.  And we go through the scope of work.  We itemize the lists that they’re asking for.  We plan out the amount of time we think those things will cost, the personnel that get loaded into that.  And then from that we build up the budgets.  So it’s basically, it’s looking at what the deliverables are going to be and then building up the tasks underneath those deliverables.  And it’s a similar effort for a smaller project, but obviously the number of people involved is much smaller.

BILL YATES:  That’s good.  I can think back to RFPs where our team did a great job of estimating, and we won the business, and we actually made money off of it.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Wow.  Impressive.

BILL YATES:  And then others that were not so good.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Right, right.

BILL YATES:  You know, there were some rocks that we didn’t turn over and look under.  And those are tough.  Are there some things that you can think back in that RFP process where you guys have found, okay, these are things that are common “gotchas” that we need to look out for?

HEIDI FOGELL:  Not fully understanding the scope is probably the biggest one.  You know, communication, I think, is probably one of the most important aspects of probably any business.  And how a scope is written can make or break how you put a proposal together.

BILL YATES:  Right.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Because it’s your understanding of what you see on the page, and that’s not necessarily the same understanding as the person who wrote it.

BILL YATES:  Correct.

HEIDI FOGELL:  And so usually we have the opportunity to ask questions and get clarifications.  But sometimes you don’t, and so that’s usually the biggest stumbling block.

ANDY CROWE:  I thought that’s why courts existed, to help bring clarity.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Well, hopefully courts never come into what we’re doing.

BILL YATES:  The type of projects that you’re doing, though, because they impact the environment, I know you’re dealing with more regulation than the typical project manager.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Right.

BILL YATES:  I think we had a guest in, Keith Williams, in the utility area.  And many of the projects that they’re doing impact the power supplies that we have and, of course, the environment.  And, you know, I sympathize with the extra weight that that brings to you in a project and the perspective that you have to have.  One of the things that I see on the background, the experience that you have is, you know, again, kind of back – you’re a scientist, and you’re also a PM.

So I think one of the advantages that you have is when you’re building that – when you’re looking at the RFP, when you’re building out your project team, even when you’re looking at estimates, you have the background where you may not be the expert in whatever the particular, you know, groundwater treatment or whatever is going on, science-wise.  But you know enough where you can do a sniff test and go, this is not even close; or this person looks like they’ve got the skill for it or not.  How does that play out?  Have you seen that play out on some of the teams that you’ve put together?

HEIDI FOGELL:  Yes, definitely.  And also we do a lot of networking within our own company because my company is large.  We have 35,000 employees worldwide.  So we have networking systems, and we use those.  And we also talk to each other, you know, trying to find the best resources to put on a project and whether it makes sense to put those people on the project.  Is it cost effective to do so?  And if it’s not cost effective, we will bring in subcontractors, if necessary, to make it so.

BILL YATES:  Right.  So out of 35,000 people, you’ve got to have the right one; right?

HEIDI FOGELL:  We pretty much do everything.  Yes.  And usually so.  But, you know, it may not make sense to bring someone from Europe to work on a project in Alabama, for example.

BILL YATES:  Exactly.

HEIDI FOGELL:  So we do what we can.  And sometimes that…

ANDY CROWE:  And there’s a language barrier there, even if they all speak English.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Yes, there is.

BILL YATES:  But we love our listeners that are in Alabama.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Absolutely.

ANDY CROWE:  Well, I was talking about the ones in Europe.

NICK WALKER:  You know, Heidi, we often like to hear about specific projects.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Yes.

NICK WALKER:  You know, how they developed; how they evolved.  Is there a recent project that you’ve worked on that you can share a little bit about?

HEIDI FOGELL:  There is one.  And I’ll actually – it’s one that didn’t go so well.  I mean, we did complete it, and it was successful in the fact that we got the job done.  But the path there was tortuous, to say the least, and long, and not really successful in my book just because, you know, we didn’t – we actually lost a little bit of money on it.  We didn’t get to fully complete the assignment.  And it just – it may not be the best project to put up as an example as far as a success story goes, but I view it as a valuable learning project.  I learned a lot from that project, mostly what not to do, but a good bit of what to do.

ANDY CROWE:  So Heidi, to me, those are some of the best lessons that we can learn is when you learn what not to do.  And it’s valuable.  It’s valuable sometimes to color outside the lines, see that you maybe made a mistake, and look back at it and think, okay.  So in this case, did you learn anything?  You said maybe some things that you wish you hadn’t done?

HEIDI FOGELL:  Yes.  It was again an issue of not fully understanding the scope.  We were brought in as a subcontractor on the project by another firm that then went out of business.  So then the client wanted to contract with us directly.  And the scope…

BILL YATES:  That sounds good, right?

HEIDI FOGELL:  It sounds good.  You know, eliminate the middleman.  But then they had a different idea of what the scope needed to be than we did.  And it kept changing.  And the project kept changing.  And because of that we had to keep changing our outputs and our testing and our results and our reports, and it kept dragging out and dragging out and dragging out.  And so the end result was a three-mile-long road-widening project in a municipal area that was already developed.  Took more than five months to get the – not five months, excuse me – five years to get the environmental documents approved.

NICK WALKER:  Oh, wow.

BILL YATES:  Wow.

HEIDI FOGELL:  And we lost, not a lot of money, but we had to go back and ask for money multiple times from the board of commissioners.  And they got to the point where they said, “Do not come back and ask us for more money.”  So we had to finish, but then we lost money on the job.  And we got it done; but it was, you know, not the best result.

BILL YATES:  Right.

HEIDI FOGELL:  I also learned that, if somebody fills in for you temporarily, don’t expect them to give it the level of attention that you would give it because they know they’re only on it temporarily.  They’re just going to babysit it for you.  They’re not necessarily going to move it forward the way it needs to be moved forward.  So I learned that lesson.

ANDY CROWE:  Okay.  I want to probe just a little bit more here, and I hope I don’t get too personal.

HEIDI FOGELL:  That’s okay.

ANDY CROWE:  But during these projects, you had a couple of maternity leaves.

HEIDI FOGELL:  I did.

ANDY CROWE:  And a lot of listeners will be interested in this…

HEIDI FOGELL:  Yes.

ANDY CROWE:  …and how it affected you and what you learned.  So you just were talking about somebody filling in for you temporarily.  Was that related to your maternity leave?

HEIDI FOGELL:  Yes.  Yes, it was.

ANDY CROWE:  Okay.

HEIDI FOGELL:  And I actually, while that project went on, I had two babies – so that tells you how long it went on – and went on two maternity leaves.  And the first maternity leave I went on, I gave the project to a seasoned project manager to run for me, and it was in the middle of it.  We were in the middle of doing the analyses, doing the air and noise studies, writing the reports.  And the person who was doing that work left the company.  Not the person who was managing for me, but the person who was actually performing the work left the company.

So he did what any good project manager would do.  He found a replacement.  He found a very expensive replacement.  So budget blown.  And then that’s all he did.  He didn’t actually talk to the client at all while I was gone, didn’t move it forward in any way.  So when I came back, the project was a little bit of a mess.  So I had to fix it.

When I went on the second maternity leave, same thing happened because we were redoing the reports by that point because enough time had passed that GDOT had changed how they wanted things to look.  So we had to redo everything anyway, and the same thing happened again.  And not that these weren’t people that were not great at their jobs, that weren’t doing me a favor.  But they didn’t have an investment in it.

ANDY CROWE:  You know, there’s a joke in project management:  Who’s the first person you blame?  And the answer’s the vendor.  Well, actually the first person’s the guy who just left; okay?  The second one is the vendor.  And I’m going to add the third one is whoever replaced the person on maternity leave.

BILL YATES:  Right, right, right.

ANDY CROWE:  Or maybe the person on maternity leave, if you really want to push the envelope there.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Right, right.  But in my business, the person that gets blamed is the consultant.

BILL YATES:  Yeah.  There you go.  Exactly.

HEIDI FOGELL:  That’s who gets blamed.

ANDY CROWE:  Yeah, the vendor, yeah.

BILL YATES:  But so there’s looking at this from a practical standpoint because I think even, like, if I go on an extended vacation, I have that battle of trying to think, okay, vacations are a chance for me to unplug.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Right.

BILL YATES:  However, I know my inbox is going to be full, and I know I’m going to have a stack of things to go through when I return.  So I’m constantly fighting this battle of, do I take a peek?  Do I try to knock out some things while I’m on vacation?  Or do I just ignore it and then pay the price when I get back?  Maternity leave, now, that’s times a hundred; right?  And you’re in the middle of a project, and you know there are things going on that you’re curious about because that was kind of your baby, too.  And so how did you juggle that?

HEIDI FOGELL:  Well, by law you actually can’t really juggle it because you’re on short-term disability.

BILL YATES:  There you go.  See, I learned something today, Nick.

NICK WALKER:  Mm-hmm.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Yeah.  So while I was checking my emails, I wasn’t really doing anything about it.  Shhh.  Don’t tell anybody.  But I would answer the phone and answer questions, you know, just like you would if you leave a job, you know, to help transition things.  But technically you’re not allowed to.

BILL YATES:  Right.  Wow.

NICK WALKER:  You know, this is a situation where you say you’ve learned a lot; but can you actually look back and say, I would have done this differently?  Or can you only say, I wish they had done that differently?

HEIDI FOGELL:  I know what answer I want to say, but that seems like the selfish answer.  I wish they had done it differently.  But I’m not really sure how I could have done it differently.  I don’t know if picking a different person would have made a difference.  I don’t think that it would have because I’ve seen the same thing in another project that I work on as the consultant.

Our EPA project manager went on a – they change and function within other federal industries from time to time, do six-month stints with another industry.  And she left for a six-month period and had a replacement, and she expected that he would do all of this work on the project while she was gone, and he didn’t, either.  So I don’t know that it’s a factor of the actual people that were chosen.  I just think it’s a mentality.  You know, everybody’s busy, and they’re helping somebody out; but they’re not necessarily invested in it maybe the way that the actual people that are involved in it day to day are.

BILL YATES:  Right.  I have a question about that scope clarification that came about, Heidi.  When you guys became the prime on that contract, there was confusion over scope, and it kept broadening.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Yes.

BILL YATES:  And there were several little, “Hey, wait a minute” moments, it sounds like.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Right, right.

BILL YATES:  Looking back on that, if you, you know, if you could hit the rewind button, what would you have done differently, or encouraged the team to do differently?

HEIDI FOGELL:  I would have written a tighter scope of work in my proposal and made several additional clarifications and assumptions within the proposal.  They were there, but it wasn’t obvious that they were there.  So I was constantly going back with the client and saying, “No, we said two rounds of comments.  This is your third, so I’m going to need a change order.”

And the other point of that project that I should mention, there was also a change in the client manager.  So the original client project manager was taken off the project because it wasn’t getting moved forward fast enough, and the new guy that came on was, you know, he was going to make it happen.  So there was that compounding factor, too.  So I would have written the scope tighter and made very clear assumptions in the document so that we had very sound bases for going back and requesting additional funding.

BILL YATES:  Yeah.  I’ve got a follow up question, too.  You said it was a five year?  So this thing spanned across five years.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Well, yeah.  And we actually inherited it from somebody else.  It was going on for five years before that, so.

BILL YATES:  Okay.

ANDY CROWE:  Wow.

BILL YATES:  So, you know, I think about the projects that I typically worked on were six months to 18 months.  And we were surprised by the amount of turnover with our key stakeholders during that period.  And now you’re talking about something five years.  How did you guys – what were some of the habits that you did, or maybe it was a part of your normal status meetings just to take a look at the stakeholders and make sure things had not changed?

HEIDI FOGELL:  That’s what we did.  We have regular status meetings.  I have staff meetings every couple weeks, and those were the folks that were working on the project.  And then I check in regularly with my team members, just, you know, how is it going?  I try not to micromanage people because I know that I don’t like it.  And if somebody’s constantly bugging me, that slows me down.  So but I do try to check in with people periodically just to make sure that they’re moving forward and the squeakier wheel isn’t getting the grease, so to speak.

NICK WALKER:  I want to ask you something general here.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Sure.

NICK WALKER:  What’s a fun kind of project for you?  Is there anything you’d classify as “fun” that you’ve worked on?

HEIDI FOGELL:  Oh, gosh.  Lots of them.  Okay.  I had a project where I actually got paid…

NICK WALKER:  You got paid?

HEIDI FOGELL:  I got paid.  I got paid to dive and look for seagrass beds.  That was fun.

BILL YATES:  Wow.

HEIDI FOGELL:  It was even more fun when I found out after the fact that there were known alligators in that area.  But they didn’t tell me that before I went in, so I wasn’t expecting it.

ANDY CROWE:  That’s an opportunity for a new pair of shoes or a briefcase or a wallet, yeah.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Yeah, you know?  I like the way you think.  So that was fun.  And actually, most of the work that I do I consider fun because we’re looking for – sometimes we don’t have the means to be creative to solve clients’ problems because, you know, there is regulation that we have to go by, and sometimes there’s very little wiggle room.  But in many instances, particularly on the larger remediation projects, we can get really creative and innovative with how we do things.  I’m working on a project right now that I can’t really go into the specifics.  But in order to reduce the remediation footprint, we’re actually going to move a river.  That’s pretty cool and fun.

BILL YATES:  Wow.

HEIDI FOGELL:  And it’s not a little river, it’s a big river.  So we’re kind of in the middle of that right now, and that’s pretty exciting.

BILL YATES:  That’s cool.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Yeah.  And I get to work with a really diverse team of people that really know what they’re doing, and that’s a lot of fun.

BILL YATES:  That’s fun.  There’s another piece that I just was thinking about.  I was doing work with Pacific Gas and Electric when the Erin Brockovich movie came out.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Oh, okay.

BILL YATES:  So actually I remember one day going to – I was consulting with them, and I had to walk across a picket line.  There was some protesting going out in front of the corporate office.  And so from time to time some of the projects that you’re working on are – they may be making the front of the paper.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Yes, they may.

BILL YATES:  And how do you manage that?  How do you guys control your communication to make sure that you don’t have a team member who’s speaking out of line?

HEIDI FOGELL:  We have meetings with our staff before there’s any kind of potential interaction with the public.  For example, if we’re going out to do field sampling, we have – safety is very important in our business.  Most of our people have OSHA HAZWOPER Training because we’re dealing with potentially contaminated environmental media.  And so we have safety briefings every morning, and sometimes at lunch, and usually tailgate meetings at the end of the day.  You know, what went well?  What could have gone better?

So when that’s an issue, particularly first meeting of the day, we say, “If anybody comes up to you and has a question, here’s what you’re to say.”  And we usually have been told by the client what to say.  “Here’s who you can refer them to if they have questions.”  And, you know, “If you see a newspaper reporter or anything, just make sure you’ve got your gloves on; make sure you’re doing your job right.”  But that’s what we do every day.  But that’s what we do.  We communicate with our staff to make sure that they know.  But it does happen on occasion that somebody messes up.

ANDY CROWE:  Sure.  Heidi, I’ve got a question as we kind of wrap up the podcast here.  What do you look for in a PM, in a project manager?  What characteristics are you most interested in for project managers that you work with or that work for you?

HEIDI FOGELL:  An ability to think quickly on their feet is very important.  Also the ability to work well with a diverse group of people because you need to be able to absorb other people’s ideas and interpret how they might work within the framework of what you’re doing.  You need to be detail-oriented enough to be able to pay attention to your scope, schedule, and budget.  And you need to have good planning and organizational skills, particularly if you’re working in large, diverse projects, you know.  It’s crucial.  It’s essential.  You have to – you can’t just, you know, be a happy-go-lucky, let-it-lie kind of project manager.

ANDY CROWE:  There are movies playing in my mind with each one of these that you’re talking about because you learn the hard way.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Right.

ANDY CROWE:  You’ll meet the best person in the world who lacks one of these skills, and you get burned on it.  It’s always going to be the one that’s missing where you get scorched.

HEIDI FOGELL:  And I think probably one of the best examples I got, and one that I try to follow, is I would never ask my team members to do something I wouldn’t do myself.

BILL YATES:  Even swim with alligators.

HEIDI FOGELL:  I did it.  So, but, you know, I think you have to garner respect with the people who are working with you.  And you have to, if you’re going to be – if you’re going to ask them to stay late to put a report together, you should be right there with them, not going home and kicking your feet up.

NICK WALKER:  Well, Heidi Fogell, thank you so much for being with us here on Manage This and giving us your valuable insight.  We actually have a special memento of your visit here.  That coffee mug sitting in front of you?

HEIDI FOGELL:  Oh, thank you.

NICK WALKER:  We’ve gone to great expense to provide that.  We’ve not moved rivers.  But you could use it for tea or coffee, probably even grow seagrass in it, if you’d like to.

HEIDI FOGELL:  Yeah, maybe so.  Well, thank you for having me.  I enjoyed being here.

NICK WALKER:  Well, thanks, Heidi.  And Andy and Bill, as always, thank you for your expertise.  Here at Manage This we pride ourselves on being able to provide a double benefit from this podcast.  Not only do you get the benefit of hearing others’ experiences, but you also earn PDUs, Professional Development Units, toward your recertifications.  To claim your free PDUs for this podcast, just go to Velociteach.com and select Manage This Podcast from the top of the page.  Click on the button that says Claim PDUs, and just click through the steps.

That’s it for us here on Manage This.  We hope you’ll tune back in on April 4th for our next podcast.  In the meantime, you can visit us at Velociteach.com/managethis to subscribe to this podcast, to see a transcript of the show, or to contact us.  And tweet us at @manage_this if you have any questions about our podcasts or about project management certifications.  We’d love to hear from you.

That’s all for this episode.  Thanks for joining us.  Until next time, keep calm and Manage This.