Steven T. Collis, author of Habits of a Peacemaker: 10 Habits to Change Our Potentially Toxic Conversations into Healthy Dialogues, shares strategies to turn potentially toxic conversations by talking it out and choosing healthy dialogues to form stronger teams. His approach includes embracing intellectual humility, asking sincere questions, assuming the best in others, and resisting the need for personal validation. Productive dialogue prioritizes mutual respect and understanding over persuasion, even in the face of significant disagreements.
Chapters
00:00 … Intro
03:20 … Habits of a Peacemaker
05:22 … Intellectual Humility
07:44 … Framing and Reframing Conversations
09:31 … Alleviate Insecurities with Framing
10:59 … Seek Real Learning
12:28 … The Trap of Confirmation Bias
14:23 … The Challenge of Slowing Down
15:21 … Assume the Best About People
19:05 … The Power of Sincere Questions
22:01 … Emotions or Facts
23:53 … Intellectual Humility of Leaders
25:52 … Kevin and Kyle
27:18 … The Importance of Forgiveness
28:56 … A Healthy Team Forgives
31:38 … Don’t Feed People’s Worst Fears
33:57 … Stating Opinions and Conclusions
35:59 … Hunt for the Best Argument Against You
38:26 … Be Willing to Change Your Mind
39:59 … Steps Towards a Future Resolution
43:00 … Connect with Steven
43:50 … Closing
Intro
STEVEN COLLIS: But in your typical organization, you know, the best managers are the ones who the best results come, and they have to kind of sit back and recognize over time that the proper recognition will come and trust in that process. When they always make it about themselves, that always leads to discord and problems. And then they need to kind of be sending that same message to their team.
Trust that if you do your job well, the recognition will come. Don’t worry about making it about yourself and personal recognition. It’s a paradox. You have to set yourself aside, and then you’ll find yourself kind of a thing.
WENDY GROUNDS: Welcome to Manage This, the podcast by project managers for project managers. Here we bring you inspiring guests and valuable insights that are shaping the future of project management. You can find out more at Velociteach.com or follow us at our Velociteach LinkedIn account.
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WENDY GROUNDS: Today we’re joined by Steven T. Collis. He’s a renowned author and law professor at the University of Texas, Austin. Steven is the founding faculty director of the Bech-Loughlin First Amendment Center and a former research fellow at Stanford Law School. As one of the nation’s leading experts on the First Amendment and civil discourse, he has dedicated his career to fostering constructive dialogue on some of the most polarizing issues of our time.
Steven is the author of three critically acclaimed books and a sought-after speaker addressing audiences around the globe, from academics to diplomats to students and community leaders. In his most recent book, “Habits of a Peacemaker: 10 Habits to Change Our Potentially Toxic Conversations into Healthy Dialogues,” Steven provides a practical guide to transforming conflict into meaningful and empathetic discussions. So, we’re excited to talk to him.
In this episode, we’re going to explore how project leaders can apply the habits that Steven outlines to navigate tricky project situations, to foster civil discourse and build stronger relationships with their teams and stakeholders. From acknowledging biases and intellectual limitations to creating space for constructive dialogue, Steven’s insights are invaluable for anyone aiming to lead with empathy and turn conflict into collaboration.
Hi, Steven. Welcome to Manage This. Thank you so much for joining us.
STEVEN COLLIS: Hey, thanks for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Habits of a Peacemaker
WENDY GROUNDS: I’m so excited to talk about your book. I absolutely enjoyed it and do highly recommend it to our audience. And I think it’s going to be a very helpful book for project managers, which is why we want to talk to you today. And we have some of the habits that you’ve spoken about in the book that we’re going to look into. But I first want to find out more about you. Is there something, maybe a particular event or an experience that inspired you to write this book?
STEVEN COLLIS: I wouldn’t say it was one particular event or experience, but it was more kind of what I talk about in the introduction, which is I am a First Amendment law professor. And so, I travel all over North America and really all over the globe talking about the freedoms of the First Amendment, which of course are religion, speech, press, assembly, and the right to petition the government; and then all of the controversies that stem off of those, which, if you start to think about it, can be pretty intense; right? It has to do with things like academic freedom, campus protests, LGBT+ rights, abortion rights, constitutional theory. It gets really thorny.
And what I found was as I was traveling around and talking about these topics, that I and the people with whom I was having conversations could have robust, healthy conversations about these topics despite deep, deep, deep disagreements.
And that got me wondering, what are the habits we’re doing? Right? These are really complicated, difficult topics, but somehow, we’re able to have productive dialogue about them. Doesn’t mean we’re persuading one another all the time. That’s not what I mean by productive. But we’re able to do it without it devolving into just a shouting match. And that kind of got me wondering, well, what are the habits we’re employing? Can I figure out what those habits are?
I spent the last three years doing that and then trying to understand kind of the scientific basis for why those habits actually work and distilling them down into a book that people can use talking about any difficult topic. It doesn’t have to be these complex political problems. It can be things that a project manager would use, or parents might use with their children. I find myself using some of these habits now that I’ve written the book with my daughter quite a bit; right? So, there’s lots of places where I think we can all learn how to have more productive conversations about difficult topics.
Intellectual Humility
WENDY GROUNDS: Right. We’re going to kick off straightaway with Habit 1, which is Intellectual Humility and Reframing, basically realizing we don’t have all the answers to things. And you mentioned the Dunning-Kruger effect. I’m just going to read, it’s “the tendency of people who have low ability or knowledge in a specific area to overestimate their ability or knowledge.” So, in project management, this kind of overconfidence can lead to costly mistakes when people also don’t want to admit what they don’t know and assume that they know a lot. So how can acknowledging that knowledge gap help us to make better decisions and foster more productive team discussions?
STEVEN COLLIS: Well, I think, you know, if you’re a project manager, one thing you probably have to realize, depending on the size of the project and type of the project, is there’s going to be all sorts of expertise needed to finish something that you may just not have. And that requires a little bit more of asking questions of the people who do have the expertise, deferring to people who have the expertise and allowing them to thrive within their sphere. Right?
I think those types of skills are critical. Someone who wants to micromanage everything, but doesn’t have the expertise to do it, often ends up in a really bad place and can really negatively affect an outcome.
I see that in almost every area of life, doesn’t have to be a project manager. But it really is this problem of assuming we really understand something when we don’t. There’s nothing wrong with just admitting, “This is outside my expertise. It’s within your wheelhouse. I need to rely on you,” and then treating people accordingly.
BILL YATES: Mm-hmm. That’s so true. It requires some humility; right?
WENDY GROUNDS: Right.
BILL YATES: You know, for project managers, many times those of us that end up in that profession, we’re controllers. Some may even call us control freaks. So, we could have blind spots about areas that we don’t know as much as we think we know. So, it requires some humility and some transparency with the team.
STEVEN COLLIS: Humility, yeah. That second part, transparency, I think is critical because it’s humility, but it’s also not being afraid to acknowledge that you’ve assembled a team in part because of their expertise. And it’s okay if you as the manager don’t have all the expertise. No one expects a manager or a CEO of a company or anyone to have all the expertise needed to run a large organization or a large project. That’s just not realistic. And just recognizing that and being comfortable with that is okay.
Framing and Reframing Conversations
WENDY GROUNDS: I want to talk about reframing conversations. For a project manager or a leader to reframe a contentious discussion when there’s something going on, and it’s going to cause problems between people, how do you advise reframing in a conflict situation?
STEVEN COLLIS: Where I start off by emphasizing is the importance of framing the conversation before you have to reframe.
BILL YATES: Uh-huh.
WENDY GROUNDS: Right.
STEVEN COLLIS: You’re the project manager, and you’re starting the dialogue, framing it in a way where you can, for example, let’s say you’ve got to bring in three people, or three departments who are supposed to work on something together, ensuring that everybody understands that we’re all on the same team, and we’re aligned with one goal, and then defining the problem in a way so everyone sees how they’re aligned with trying to solve it.
Sometimes people will frame problems in a way that makes it seem as if the various departments or the various people are at odds with one another. So, this is critical because a manager, a really good manager needs to spend, I would say, as much time thinking about how they’re going to frame the conversation as they do on actually having the conversation itself.
Usually what ends up happening is they spend 1% of their time thinking how they’re going to frame the dilemma, and then a whole bunch of time dealing with conflicts and things that arise because they didn’t frame it properly. It’s way better off to think, okay, well, you know, what is the shared outcome we’re all trying to get here? How are we all aligned? I need to frame this in a way so we don’t turn people against each other and then go forward from there.
Now, sometimes you get a conflict that lands in your lap that’s already been framed the wrong way, and a good manager needs to help everybody take a step back and say, wait a minute.
One way you can do this is harkening back to intellectual humility. The manager can say, look, I don’t – I’m not sure I fully understand what’s going on here, so let me try to rethink this, and you guys help me out. And then present a problem that the two sides who have a conflict are then trying to solve together. That’s a really good way to kind of help bring people together on something.
Alleviate Insecurities with Framing
BILL YATES: That’s so funny. I’m just laughing thinking of examples of, as a leader of a team, you know, I’m setting the team up, not in a good way. If I say something like, hey, I brought Lisa in from the risk assessment department because we need some help with blah, blah, blah, their initial reaction is probably, okay, what did we do wrong? What could we not figure out, or what’s the problem that we couldn’t solve? So yeah, framing before I have to reframe.
WENDY GROUNDS: That’s true.
BILL YATES: That’s a very good, yeah, really got to think about, okay, if I do need help from someone outside, and it happens to be Lisa, then how do I set that up in a way that the team gets it and embraces it, and they’re aligned on the same problem? It’s not an us versus that other person type situation. We didn’t mess something up. You know, we’re just trying to solve the problem.
STEVEN COLLIS: Right, yeah. People are inherently insecure; right? So, if you bring in Lisa – you’ve had two other departments, let’s say, with Mike and Jeff running things. You bring in Lisa, and you frame it as if – you’ve got to be very careful because even you might do this subtly without saying it. You might frame it as if “You two have been screwing up. I’m bringing Lisa here to solve what you did?” Like, no, no, no, no, no, no.
BILL YATES: Yeah.
STEVEN COLLIS: You’ve got to frame it in a way that helps alleviate their insecurities, ensures that, like, look, you guys are doing a great job. We have this shared problem. She has some expertise that I simply don’t have, and I wanted to be able to all brainstorm together on this common problem. Let’s see if we can figure it out. That’s so much more productive than saying, hey, we’ve got this problem. You guys couldn’t solve it so I’m bringing in Lisa, see what she can do; right? Like that’s not going to be good.
BILL YATES: That’s not good.
Seek Real Learning
WENDY GROUNDS: Habit 2 that you talk about is Seek Real Learning. I think this follows on really well to the intellectual humility. When there’s a situation with stakeholders where there’s maybe some misinformation or manipulation or going with your gut when it comes to conversations. How do you view that? What would your recommendation be? Is it okay to go with your gut?
STEVEN COLLIS: Sometimes you have to on smaller things; right? But I also think people make all sorts of assumptions about all sorts of situations, and usually they’re just wrong. I hate to say it, but that’s true. Now, again, look, all of us have to make gut decisions all day long; and that’s, I think, a normal and expected part of things. But when it comes to major decisions that really require a significant amount of knowledge, I think it’s okay to slow down and actually engage in some real learning, looking at things from all points of view.
You know, I was talking to a CEO the other day, a very successful CEO, and he said one of his favorite things to do is when they’re talking about, say, entering into a new market, he will, intentionally will bring in people in his company who disagree about whether or not they should go into that market, and all he wants to do is hear their various arguments.
And he really encourages them. “I just want to hear everything you have to say, guys. I’m not going to make a decision today. I’m just trying to think through all, everything I need to be aware of before we make this decision.” Instead of assuming that one group or the other knows what they’re talking about and just going with his gut, he’s actually trying to get informed conversation going, and he wants to be pointed to data and sources that he then can think about before he makes the final decision.
The Trap of Confirmation Bias
WENDY GROUNDS: Are there any practical habits that you could recommend or advise on slowing down, critically processing information to avoid that trap of confirmation bias?
STEVEN COLLIS: Yeah. You know, one thing I found peacemakers do, and this is true for in a business setting, but it’s true in a political commentator, in family situations is they always hunt for, and I mean aggressively hunt for, the best argument against their position on something. So, if they have a gut feeling that they want to do “A,” they will hunt for the best arguments against Path A and then really consider it before they actually pull the trigger. And they’re the kind of people who really look for those things.
And, you know, again, going back to the CEO I was talking about, he may decide, look, we want to – we want to open up a new market in Oklahoma City. My gut’s telling me it’s going to be amazing. He will ask for and seek out all of the best arguments he can find, not straw man arguments, the best arguments he can find against going into Oklahoma City so that he can really think it through. And usually what ends up happening is, if his gut is right, he’s in a much better position because he’s actually really considered all the possible negatives that might come from it; right?
BILL YATES: Mm-hmm. That’s true. And by inviting those who have an opposite opinion in.
WENDY GROUNDS: Right.
BILL YATES: You know, there’s so much value in that, especially within a team. Even if it’s somebody outside my team. But if my team sees that, okay, this was a serious enough thing that I researched that I made sure that I got opposite opinions and seriously considered those, then they’re going to respect my decision, my leadership even more.
STEVEN COLLIS: And you really have to tell those people that are coming in for the opposite decisions that you genuinely want to hear them.
BILL YATES: Yeah.
STEVEN COLLIS: Like, I don’t want to hear something soft here. I want to hear the absolute best argument you could make against why I’m thinking about what I’m thinking of doing. And don’t be upset if you don’t persuade me. I just need to hear it. I need to be able to think it through; right? Like set people at ease and free them up to be able to express their views.
The Challenge of Slowing Down
WENDY GROUNDS: I think it’s also difficult for project managers. You’re on the go. You’ve got to make decisions really quickly. But to say, you know, slow down, be more deliberate, be more open-minded, I think that can be quite a challenge.
STEVEN COLLIS: Yeah. And, you know, this is where so much of this has to do with the weight of the decision.
Some are small things that you can, I think you can make a gut decision on and move forward very quickly. Part of the purpose of having habits, though, is that we should always be in a state of intellectual humility. We should always be engaging in habits to remind ourselves how little we know. We should always be in the habit of engaging real learning. If you’re in those habits on a day-to-day basis, it allows for faster decision-making.
What’s a challenge is if you’re not in any of those habits, and then a big decision comes along, and then you have to kind of force yourself to get into the habit of having considered, say, opposing arguments. Hopefully, you’re doing that all along, all the time, in everything you’re doing. And then that actually speeds up the decision-making process.
Assume the Best About People
WENDY GROUNDS: I really liked Habit 3, where you said Assume the Best About People. That’s a challenge sometimes. You’re talking to someone, and you’re assuming the worst. You know, not really looking behind what they’re saying. Can you talk a little bit about that? About, not assuming what other people’s motives are, and to be more productive and open-minded?
STEVEN COLLIS: Yeah, you know, most of us, I have found, strut around the world thinking there’s three kinds of people. There’s the people who agree with us on any issue, and then there are fools, and there are monsters. And, you know, we tend not to recognize that there might be people who disagree with us, and they might actually have good underlying reasons.
And it doesn’t mean that the world’s not filled with fools and monsters. There are fools and monsters out there. But my experience has been people who are good at having productive discourse don’t start with the assumption that people who disagree with them are fools and monsters. They kind of make them prove it; right? By asking questions, trying to understand.
And it may be that as somebody disagrees with you, and you start to try to understand, what you find out is that they really are kind of a fool, or maybe they do have nefarious motives; right? You can see a world where you’re working in an organization, and someone’s solution to something is, “Well, we should lay off these five people.” And what you find out is what they’re really doing is acting out of self-interest, trying to protect their own job; okay? And that’s not a good reason. But to assume that’s where they started, they might have a really good reason for wanting to lay off these five people, and it’s something you should be really considering.
The only way to get there is don’t start with the assumption they’re a bad actor. Start with the assumption that you don’t know what their motivations are, and try to understand those motivations, and then go from there.
BILL YATES: Mm-hmm.
WENDY GROUNDS: Yeah. That was a big lesson for me, I think, coming from a different culture. When I immigrated here, there were many times that people would say things to me, and it was easy to go to that place of, “I can’t believe they just said that to me.”
BILL YATES: Oh, right.
WENDY GROUNDS: Where if it was a cultural thing, that was just a normal way of saying something; but to me it was incredibly offensive. And so, I had to really try and assume the best, that what they said wasn’t what I was hearing; you know.
STEVEN COLLIS: Well, and that’s a really good habit to get into is when someone says something to you that you think, “Wow, that was just – that was mean, it was offensive, they were accusing me of something that was really bad,” is to actually get yourself out of your mind.
And sometimes it’s helpful to use a journal to do this, or just your notes on your phone or something. You write down what they said and ask yourself, “What are all the other possible ways I could interpret this?” And sometimes what you might end up finding is that your initial gut reaction is driven maybe more by your insecurity or, like you pointed out, a cultural difference, than by it really being a negative comment.
WENDY GROUNDS: Right, right, because that’s probably not what they meant. That’s a good tool for marriage, too, is “He probably didn’t mean that.”
BILL YATES: Huge.
STEVEN COLLIS: Yeah, yeah.
BILL YATES: Yes.
STEVEN COLLIS: Actually, I think I write this in the book, I’m not sure if I do or not, but my wife and I have now been married 25 years. Very, very, very happy, low-conflict marriage. And one of the best things we ever did is at the very beginning of our marriage, my wife had this brilliant idea. She said, “We should always assume that the other person has a good reason for what they’re doing; right?”
So, for example, if she comes home one night because she’s doing something, and I just left the kitchen a complete mess, and she just sees me on the couch watching a football game, she can assume that I’m just being a lazy jerk, or she can assume like, “Well, maybe he’s not feeling well. Maybe he spent the entire evening trying to get the kids down, and he just barely finished and plopped on the couch right before I got in the house. Maybe he’s planning to do it in five minutes.” Right? Like there’s all sorts of things that we can assume about each other that result in good outcomes. And that practice alone has helped so much keeping our marriage strong and solid.
BILL YATES: Mm-hmm. That’s so key. Healthy teams, healthy marriages, healthy parenting. Yeah, that’s really…
The Power of Sincere Questions
WENDY GROUNDS: Yeah. Why don’t you talk about the power of sincere questions? Describe what is a sincere question, and how a project manager can use a well-planned sincere question to de-escalate a situation.
STEVEN COLLIS: Yeah, this is related to the not assuming people’s motives, but too often we ask questions in a rhetorical vein. We’re trying to make a point instead of asking questions to actually understand someone and where they’re coming from and what their argument is and what they’re thinking; right?
And so it’s critical once you start off by not assuming the worst about someone, and you’re trying to understand their point of view, where they’re coming from, why they want to take action X instead of action Y, that you make it clear you’re asking genuinely to understand their motivations or maybe to understand the repercussions of what they’re suggesting, and you’re not just making rhetorical points to try to undermine what they’ve said. And sometimes you have to explicitly say that.
I was in a conversation the other night with a guy, and I was asking him all these questions. And about, oh, probably the fourth question, I could tell he was thinking I was asking these questions to kind of – as a form of quasi argument. And so, I told him, I was like, “Just to be clear, I’m not arguing at all. I really just want to understand your position here. These are not rhetorical questions. I’m not trying to make a point. I genuinely have never heard your argument before, and I just want to understand it.” Sometimes we have to make sure, make clear that’s what we’re doing in case people assume we’re not.
BILL YATES: You know, I can see that in project leadership so often where, you know, maybe the project leader sees that we’re going to miss a deadline and needs to contact the customer and let them know. And maybe there’s a team member who feels responsible for it because it was something that was assigned to them, and it slipped.
But the project manager needs to communicate to that team member, no, no, no. I’m going to have a call with our customer. I want to genuinely know. I’m not looking to throw you under the bus, and I’m also not looking to make you feel any worse about it right now. Just explain to me so that I can tee it up properly for the customer so the customer can understand, too.
So, yeah, there are many times we have to have those conversations on a project team where we’ve got to let people know what’s my motive behind that, what’s my intent. And that can free us up to have a productive conversation and not feel like, okay, I’m just getting thrown under the bus over and over for the mistake I made or whatever.
STEVEN COLLIS: Right. Speaking of customers, sometimes you’d call up and deal with a client or a customer, and they’re all upset because they think you should be doing one thing when you’re trying to do something else. Again, asking the right questions and sincere questions to understand what their concerns are, what are they worried about, why do they feel like that path would be better than the one you’re on is critical before you actually start to disagree.
And what you don’t want to do is start asking questions that, again, are just meant to give rhetorical points for your view of things. That’s not helpful. You know, say, well, have you considered how much that’s going to cost? Right. That’s not a real question. That’s just an argument. So, you really have to ask sincere questions to understand people.
Emotions or Facts
WENDY GROUNDS: Yeah. And that’s understanding their motivation. Yeah. You talk in the book about researchers that suggest moral psychology influences decision-making more than pure logic. How can project managers recognize when it’s emotions rather than facts that are driving someone’s perspective? And how can they navigate that?
STEVEN COLLIS: Well, I mean, there’s a couple of ways. One thing you can look at is do they actually act emotional. Sometimes you can detect that; right? But part of it is just no one’s going to admit, for example, if they’re on a project, that they want to do something just because it’s in their own self-interest; right? They’re not acting out of interest for the project, and they’re not acting out of interest for the client or whatever. It’s just about self-promotion. No one’s going to admit that.
But I think a good project manager can generally identify if someone is doing that and then try to figure out a way to kind of steer this person so that they don’t undermine the whole group and maybe continue to give them praise so that they feel valued and don’t feel as insecure about needing self‑promotion.
And the question, of course, is how do you get there? And this requires a lot of, again, asking questions. One thing you might find out is you start to ask someone about why they want to do something. And then I should emphasize, people tend to take more extreme positions when they’re communicating in a group setting. So, if you’re worried that somebody might not have the best motivations, or you can’t quite pin down why they feel like they want to do something, it’s often good to have a one-on-one conversation and talk to them where they don’t feel like they’ve got to put a show on for everybody else; right?
And then you might ask enough questions to get down and realize, okay, what’s really going on here is this person is insecure about this next round of promotions we’re going to have, and it’s influencing what they’re recommending on this particular project. So, I need to manage them a certain way that makes them less insecure so we can actually get to the best outcomes. Things like that are, I think, stuff you have to do as a manager.
Intellectual Humility of Leaders
BILL YATES: I cannot agree more with the need for a one-on-one conversation. That’s so important. And, you know, many times for project managers, they end up in this leadership position because they have some kind of technical foundation of knowledge; right? They’re technically good at something, and then suddenly they’re in charge of the team. And they’re looking at it going, okay, I’ve never managed people before. How do I do this? What you’re describing is such a key. It’s so important.
When there is a sense of, okay, what’s motivating this team member? Why am I getting this behavior all of a sudden? Meet with them one-on-one and just, you know, be open, ask questions, even some of the basics of make sure it’s in a neutral place. You know, don’t say, “Hey, come into my office,” you know, or “Come into this fish tank where everybody can walk by and see us talking so it looks like you’re in trouble.”
STEVEN COLLIS: Right, right, right, right. Yeah, you’ve got to set people at ease; right? What I love about what you just said, though, and what I love about your podcast generally is, I mean, you describe what is a commonly recognized problem in every industry in the capitalist world, right, which is people often get promoted to managerial positions because they’ve developed good expertise in the subject matter in which they’re working. And they might be a really good engineer. They might be a really good lawyer. They might be academically really good at publishing things. So, then you get promoted up into a management position.
And this goes back to Habit #1. Really good managers will recognize, okay, I might have been a good engineer, and that’s what got me this job. I know nothing about management; right? Have you taken a class on management? Have you ever done anything to actually understand management?
And if you can start with that place of intellectual humility, and then start listening to podcasts like this one and reading books about good management practices and learning how to communicate, what you’ll recognize is, all right, I’m a good engineer. Now I need to spend the next few years learning how to be a good manager. And it’s a whole new field I need to study. Most people don’t – they really struggle to that. They just assume, I was a good lawyer; I’ll be a good manager. And those two things do not translate even a little bit.
Kevin and Kyle
KEVIN RONEY: What is the difference between a mediator and an astronaut? An astronaut may sit on top of a controlled explosion but at least he has some idea of the direction it’s headed.
We probably all experience some level of conflict many times a week and it can happen so quickly. In an instant, teams that are meant to be helping each other end up locked in conflict. At work you can’t just cut someone off and not deal with it. And in a professional setting your reputation is also at stake.
KYLE CROWE: When it comes to conflict, a good piece of advice I’ve been given is to not deal with it when you’re in a highly emotional state, step back and try to cool off.
Conflict at work isn’t fun—but it doesn’t have to derail you. On your teams you might see two different types of conflict. There’s task-based conflict – when people clash over a specific goal or action, and there’s emotional interpersonal conflict which happens when people just can’t get along. How you deal with conflict is a major factor to the success or failure of your projects
KEVIN RONEY: As a manager, you can create a work environment that encourages tolerance and open-minded exploration of differences. Knowing when to allow employees to work things out themselves, and when (and how) to mediate a conflict on your own is a big part of that.
KYLE CROWE: If you’re looking for some conflict management strategies, or some steps to successfully resolve any conflict take a look at our InSite course by Neal Whitten: 7 STEPS TO SUCCESSFUL CONFLICT MANAGEMENT. This online course prepares you for successfully resolving conflict by introducing you to the causes as well as the need for conflict.
KEVIN RONEY: Once you can identify actions you can take to change the conflict culture on your team, you’ll see how conflicts are opportunities to build stronger teams.
The Importance of Forgiveness
WENDY GROUNDS: Yeah. Another thing you talk about, which I’ve done conflict management, a little bit of conflict management training and things like that, and so seldom in that subject do they talk about forgiveness. But you talk about forgiveness in your book. Why is it so crucial for conflict resolution? And how does it help a team move forward?
STEVEN COLLIS: All day long, people are doing things that can offend us; right? I once had someone say something to me, they said, look, if someone didn’t do something at work today that could have offended you, you probably didn’t go to work. Right? Like, people all day long do things, big and small. And unless it’s really egregious – and egregious things happen, and they do need to be confronted. I’m not suggesting conflict avoidance. But by and large we have to forgive the small things and just move on.
You know, just yesterday, I had a – or two days ago I had a conversation with a colleague who said something that I felt was quite accusatory of me. Like, life is too short for me to spend a whole bunch of time and energy worrying about that. Maybe they were in a bad mood. I don’t know; right? But I just have to forgive and keep going. Otherwise, you end up dwelling on these past mistakes.
Oftentimes you’re making false assumptions, like you were talking about, you know, you have a cultural difference, someone said something that was offensive. If you spend the rest of your day or week focusing on that, instead of forgiving and moving on, you’re going to destroy your own productivity. You’re going to make those relationships that much more difficult. You know, forgiveness is key to everything. And it’s a key to every healthy relationship. There’s not one of us does not need to be forgiven for something. I’m sure I’m doing something right now that probably offends your listeners. I hope they’ll forgive me; right? Like, just part of the – that’s part of the world we live in.
A Healthy Team Forgives
BILL YATES: Yeah. Steve, it’s so fun that you bring this up because I think of, with the personalities that we encounter in projects, there’s a diversity of people that are bringing value to a project team. There’s going to be conflict. And when people are passionate about something, whether it’s their professional practice or the output that this product’s going to do or, you know, what the result of this project or the customer, whatever, where there’s passion, you know, many times there’s going to be this sense of, “Oh, man, I was out of bounds. My bad.” You know, there’s going to be a need for forgiveness; right?
So, it’s such a healthy word for a healthy team. Just to know, because people are going to – they’re going to have good days; they’re going to have bad days. They’re going to have times where they need to say to the team, “We were on that status call with the customer, and I blew it. I really should not have shared that piece. I was just really annoyed. Here’s why. So, my bad. I hit the reset button. I hope you guys will forgive me. Let’s go forward.” That needs to be built into the DNA of a healthy team.
STEVEN COLLIS: Right. And what I emphasize in the book is, you know, there’s a lot of science behind this. This isn’t just like happy talk; right? Or even religious talk, although I value religious talk. But science has proven that when we can forgive other people the slights and the mistakes they make, all of us are better off.
BILL YATES: Yup.
STEVEN COLLIS: And so, it’s a critical skill to learn.
BILL YATES: Mm-hmm.
WENDY GROUNDS: Yeah, yeah. It’s definitely we benefit the most when we forgive.
STEVEN COLLIS: That’s right.
WENDY GROUNDS: I was talking to someone who is very dear to me, but she had a problem with someone in her life, and that had treated her very cruelly. And she would not forgive. She was never going to forgive her. And I said to her, “But, you know, you’re not going to ever feel that you’ve got over this until you forgive.” And her words to me were so upsetting because she said, “If I forgive her, then she wins.”
BILL YATES: Ohhh.
WENDY GROUNDS: I was like, “Whoa.”
STEVEN COLLIS: Yeah. And it’s important to realize, too, that forgiving somebody for a wrong they’ve done, and you know there are real wrongs, and then there’s all the kind of daily slights we’re talking about. I think forgiving for daily slights should just be automatic. But if somebody truly really wrongs us, there’s a difference between forgiving somebody, but still holding them accountable.
BILL YATES: Sure. Mm-hmm.
STEVEN COLLIS: Right? And we’re not suggesting, for example, that if, let’s say you’ve got someone on your team who, I don’t know, they steal something; right? They need to be held accountable, probably need to be fired or disciplined or somehow. But you can also still forgive them internally and emotionally so that you can continue to move on. Or perhaps you can forgive them, but they need to be treated in a way that you’re going to be a little less trusting next time. You have to put in some safety protocols, that kind of stuff.
So, you know, its important people do not conflate forgiveness with allowing continued abuses, that kind of a thing. Those are not the same thing. But psychologically and emotionally, being able to forgive someone is absolutely critical.
BILL YATES: Yeah.
Don’t Feed People’s Worst Fears
WENDY GROUNDS: Yeah. I agree with you 100%. I’m going to jump down to Habit #4: Don’t Feed People’s Worst Fears. There was a lot that was really interesting here. One of it was the desire for personal recognition that can lead to friction in teams. So how can a project manager shift their focus from seeking validation to fostering a culture of shared success so that it’s not just all about them?
STEVEN COLLIS: Right. Well, one thing I want to emphasize here is, you know, if we live in a world where most people are strutting around assuming that anyone who disagrees with them are fools or monsters, we kind of have to assume that everybody thinks that we are a fool or a monster if we disagree with them, right?
BILL YATES: It goes both ways.
STEVEN COLLIS: And so, the worst thing we can do is act like a fool or a monster; right? We have to make sure we’re not validating those inherent fears people have. So yeah, for a project manager, I mean, I think the worst thing a project manager can do is make it all about them.
I have a buddy, I won’t say his name, but he’s one of the leading music producers in the world. He’s won something like eight Grammys. And if I said his name, and the audience looked him up, they’d all immediately be amazed. And I read once about why so many musicians, we’re talking about the top, top artists in the world, like working with him. And one of them said, “I like working with him because he makes it all about the music. It’s not about him getting recognition.”
And so, he has seen it as his role as a top producer to work behind the scenes to help the artists achieve their vision and goals and make the best product they possibly can. And he gets rewarded handsomely by recognizing that that is his role and being okay with it instead of always making it about himself which, if he had done, always wanting recognition, always wanting people to kind of shine the light on him, he actually would have ended up failing.
And so, you know, that’s – a producer actually is a type of project manager. But in your typical organization, you know, the best managers are the ones who the best results come, and they have to kind of sit back and recognize over time that the proper recognition will come and trust in that process. When they always make it about themselves, that always leads to discord and problems. And then they need to kind of be sending that same message to their team.
Trust that if you do your job well, the recognition will come. Don’t worry about making it about yourself and personal recognition. It’s a paradox. You have to set yourself aside, and then you’ll find yourself kind of a thing.
BILL YATES: Yes.
Stating Opinions and Conclusions
WENDY GROUNDS: You also suggest that stating opinions or conclusions should be like unstable explosives offered gently and slowly. I thought that was really interesting.
BILL YATES: I like that.
WENDY GROUNDS: Can you talk a little bit about that?
STEVEN COLLIS: Yeah, it’s funny. I live in a world where, like professors, all they want to do is offer their opinions and conclusions. Yeah, I figured out why that is. It’s I think it’s because we spend most of our time talking to students who kind of like listen to everything we say or at least feel like they have to sit there quietly while we talk. And so, we end up – we end up being way quicker to just shout out our opinions on things.
But you know, a really healthy good conversation is one in which you’re trying to hear what everyone has to say. It’s not just all about you blasting out your opinions, especially if it’s an issue on which you’re not quite sure you know enough about. Being slower, like I say, treating it like unstable explosives, sometimes you have to state your opinions. But make sure you’ve thought about it, and make sure you actually know what you’re talking about. You’ve done your digging and your research before you do it is absolutely critical.
BILL YATES: I like this point because to me it points to the leadership journey, your maturation as a leader of people. I think you have to become more and more self-aware of this, the more whatever authority or responsibility you have. I think for many project managers, they don’t realize how much, I’m going to say power, but authority, how much weight they have before their team.
So, they have to be really careful with overstating an opinion or jumping in with a conclusion that can shut people down or be too early in the process. They need to let it breathe. They need to let things happen and people express their opinions and really tease it out, or they’re going to shut people down. And then to your point, in future projects, they won’t have people requesting them. They won’t have people wanting to be on their team because…
STEVEN COLLIS: Right.
BILL YATES: …they’ve not fostered the right kind of leadership.
STEVEN COLLIS: Yeah. And it’s critical because if you come in too strong, too hard, too fast, you really will shut people down. And then you have to make an affirmative effort to really work hard to get people to open up. And you can do it. And we’ve talked about that a little bit. But it’s so much more difficult.
BILL YATES: Right.
Hunt for the Best Argument Against You
WENDY GROUNDS: Habit 5, we talked about this a little earlier, as well: Hunt for the Best Argument Against You. Just briefly, in project teams, perhaps there’s discomfort when new ideas are brought in or challenging perspectives and things like that. How can a project manager prepare their team and themselves to not feel threatened by new ideas?
STEVEN COLLIS: Well, I think this goes back to framing, right? Like you’ve framed the beginning of a meeting or a dialogue or something that’s happening on Slack or whatever as, hey, this is going to be, say, a brainstorming session. I want to hear all ideas and arguments. Disagree with one another. We’re not going to take anything personal. Let’s just get everything on the table for the first 45 minutes and understand all the best arguments, and then we’ll go from there.
But it takes a leader to kind of set that tone and make sure if somebody snaps at someone else to say, now, wait a minute, remember what we said we’re going to do here. We’re going to listen to all the best arguments, even if we disagree with them. Let’s just hear them, see if we understand them. Let’s make sure we all understand them.
If somebody says something that seems radical, that we think is crazy, why don’t we ask a whole bunch of questions to make sure we understand it first and in its best form? This is critical, too. I think I talk about this in that chapter, that oftentimes people state their arguments, but they don’t state them in their best form. And a really good manager will spend the time to understand that argument and then reframe it in its absolute best form so that you’re actually considering it. Because somebody might say something that the rest of the group thinks, that’s crazy. That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard; right?
And then you think, well, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Underlying that statement had to have been something logical that makes sense. Let’s flesh it out. Let’s see if we can understand it. And a good manager hopefully can perceive that and then restate the argument in its absolute best form so everybody can really take it seriously.
BILL YATES: And for the person who offered it up in its raw form, you know – because I’ve done that before. I’ve blurted something out and then thought, ah, I think I may have something, but I did not say it right. If the leader can come in and help that person, it just reinforces the safety and the strength of the team.
STEVEN COLLIS: What I like to do in that stuff with my teams is I’ll say, okay, here’s how I interpreted what you just said. I’m going to restate it. I don’t want to put words in your mouth, so tell me if I’m not stating it right.
But I just want to – I want to see if I’m understanding your point. And then I’ll try to reframe it in a much better way. And usually they’re like, yeah, that’s what I was trying to say. Or sometimes they’ll be like, no, that’s not what I was saying. Even that dialogue is productive. You’re getting a better sense of what their point was; right?
Be Willing to Change Your Mind
WENDY GROUNDS: Yeah, that ties in well with Habit 6, as well, which is what we’ve learned about being open to change. It’s the same thing, you know, when new ideas or different topics come in. And the project leader has to kind of balance the new perspectives that are coming in, but then they also still have the project goals that they want to stand firm on. So how can you balance that, the new ideas as well as wanting to stay firm to the goals of the project?
STEVEN COLLIS: Well, it kind of relates to, you know, what is the point of any of this if we’re not going to listen to brilliant new things that come onto the table; right? We have to be willing to hear those things. And it might be you’ve got a project goal, and some young whippersnapper just came in with an idea that’s going to help you reach that goal for 60% of the cost. You’d be way under budget. Everybody’s going to be praised for it. You’ve got to listen, and then you’ve got to be willing to say, wait a minute, I hadn’t considered that. That is a much better approach here. Now let’s vet it. Everyone tell me the best argument against that approach; right?
WENDY GROUNDS: Right.
BILL YATES: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
STEVEN COLLIS: And then if it’s better, be willing to adopt it and go forward. That happens all the time. And the worst managers are the ones who maybe they’re worried that it’s going to look as if, because it wasn’t their idea, that they didn’t do a good job, or other people will be insecure that their idea got rejected. You have to kind of assuage all those egos and go with what’s best and be willing to change your mind on things.
WENDY GROUNDS: Given the time of our podcast, we did not have time to go into all 10 of the habits, as much as I would have loved to have talked and asked you questions on all of them. So, I’m saying to our audience that…
BILL YATES: Buy the book.
WENDY GROUNDS: …if you want to find out more, buy the book.
STEVEN COLLIS: Yes.
WENDY GROUNDS: It really is incredibly helpful.
Steps Towards a Future Resolution
WENDY GROUNDS: So, I’m going to jump down to Habit 10 as our last one, which is what we’ve learned about embracing the discomfort of non-disclosure. Now, in a situation, in a team situation or conflict or whatever is going on, resolution isn’t always immediate. How can project managers shift their mindset to appreciate that difficult conversations don’t always have an instant agreement? You know, you’re not always going to have a final conclusion in the first time you bring up some disagreement. How can they take steps towards a future resolution?
STEVEN COLLIS: Right. So, this kind of gets to the heart of the book of what I mean by productive discourse. I define a “peacemaker” as someone who can have productive discourse about hard topics. And in this context, a hard topic could be any of the many conflicts that arise in a project’s lifetime. Some of these conflicts are short-fuse; right? We need to make a decision now. We’ve got to reach a conclusion. And in that instance, you do have to reach some kind of closure. But there’s a lot of longer burning questions that perhaps don’t need an immediate answer.
And it might be enough that someone has just pointed out, hey, we need to research this type of engineering method better. That alone, just identifying that you have to research a particular question better, is progress. That is productive.
So, the good manager will say, okay, would you please jump on that? Report back to the group on Wednesday, and let’s figure out from there, and being okay with that in state of affairs. Some people really struggle with that. An idea has come on the table, and they feel like they’ve got to get closure. And my point there is, you know, good peacemakers are folks who are comfortable with the non-closure for a little while as they continue to inch toward a solution.
You know, for project managers, eventually you always have to reach some kind of solution because you have to make decisions and go forward. Other topics, though? Family dynamics, political topics, things like that? You could go a lifetime in a state of non-closure, and it’s okay. I promise it’s okay. If you’re just making progress and getting closer to resolving the issue in your own mind, that’s healthy and good.
BILL YATES: Yeah. For that project leader to recognize a timeline, you know, we don’t have to decide today. We can decide next Wednesday, or we can decide even by Friday of next week. Yeah, it’s so critical to give it some time. I’m a big fan of Colin Powell’s “13 Habits.” You know, one of them is things look better in the morning. Sleep on it..
STEVEN COLLIS: Right.
BILL YATES: You know, talk it over. Everybody has said their opinion on something. Maybe it got heated, so maybe there’s a bit of tension in the room. We need to sleep on this. And to your point, let’s research it. We’ve got some action items to follow up on this.
STEVEN COLLIS: I think you never want to discount the value of your subconscious mind; right? Like you have a conversation. You have to make some decision that needs to be made in three weeks, but you’ve got three weeks. You’ve got some people looking into it. Tell everybody, “Look, let your subconscious minds kind of churn on this for a little while. We’ll come back next week. We’ll talk about it again, and we’ll get there.” You know. I think being okay with that is a critical skill that good peacemakers have and good managers have.
Connect with Steven
WENDY GROUNDS: How can our audience get in touch with you or get hold of your book if they want to find out more?
STEVEN COLLIS: The book is “Habits of a Peacemaker.” Its available anywhere books are sold. And then for me, you know, if you google just Steven Collis, Steven with a V, and Collis is C-O-L-L-I-S, all my stuff should pop up. And I do have my own website, StevenTCollis.com, but available on my university’s website and other places, as well.
BILL YATES: I’ve heard it said many times, and we preach on this with our project managers, project management is about art and science. And you have really helped us on both levels. You know, there are many project managers that say, “Okay, there’s way too much art involved with my team. I can’t deal with this.” So, your advice and your practical steps have been super helpful. Thank you for sharing this time with us.
STEVEN COLLIS: Well, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it, and I enjoyed it very much.
Closing
WENDY GROUNDS: That’s it for us here on Manage This. Thank you for hanging out with us today. It’s always a pleasure to have you along for the ride. Don’t forget, you can visit us anytime at Velociteach.com to subscribe, catch up on past episodes, or read the full transcript of today’s show.
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