Is your mindset holding your team back? Self-deception can quietly erode team dynamics and productivity, leaving leaders and team members blind to their own roles in workplace challenges. Desmond Lomax, a clinical mental health therapist, shares how this pervasive mindset impacts relationships, trust, and team culture. Desmond explains how shifting from an inward mindset to an outward one—moving from “me” to “we”—is the key to fostering healthier, more collaborative teams.
Chapters
00:00 … Intro
02:28 … Meet Desi
05:09 … How Self-Deception Manifests
07:20 … Distorting our Perception of Reality
09:42 … Seeing Others as Obstacles
12:59 … An Interpersonal Risk
14:05 … An Inward Mindset
16:08 … Overcoming an Inward Mindset
21:01 … How We Dehumanize People
22:30 … How to Change a Mindset
26:07 … Kevin and Kyle
27:18 … Self-Deception vs. Self-Betrayal
30:44 … Impact of Self-Deception on Team Morale
33:19 … Create a High-Efficiency Environment
34:43 … Be Willing to be Vulnerable
37:53 … Inspiring Team Members to be Outward
40:56 … The Arbinger Institute
41:51 … Get in Touch
44:00 … Closing
Intro
DESMOND LOMAX: So anytime we’re in a situation where we’re so focused on what’s impacting us, and we’re blind to how we’re impacting others, you’re going to have poor collaboration. You’re not going to have a real strong sense of accountability because it’s really about how people are impacting you, not how you’re impacting others. There’s going to be day-to-day significant work issues.
One of the common issues I’ve seen is that when I’m not humanizing a person, and I’m blind to it, that person is going to resist me. They’re going to resist me.
WENDY GROUNDS: Welcome to Manage This, the podcast by project managers for project managers. I’m Wendy Grounds, and Bill Yates and I are here in the studio today. We’re diving into a topic that is going to impact every project leader, team member, organization. We’re looking at mindset and the concept of self‑deception and how it shapes our relationships and workplace culture.
Our guest is Desmond Lomax, and he’s going to walk us through how mindset changes, not just behavior changes, are the key to fostering healthier teams. Desmond is a clinical mental health therapist, and he has over 20 years of experience in law enforcement and corrections. He’s going to tell us a little bit about that. He is now retired from corrections, and he’s taken on a new challenge as a senior consultant at the Arbinger Institute. Desmond is also going to tell us a little bit about what the Arbinger Institute does.
BILL YATES: Wendy, in our conversation with Desmond, we’re going to let him break down how self-deception makes us blind to our own role in problems, and that self-deception prevents us from building strong collaborative teams. But don’t worry, we’re going to give solutions, as well. We’re not just going to describe the problem. We’ll explore how shifting from that inward mindset, which centers on me, my perspective, to an outward mindset, focusing on others, focusing on the team, focusing on other stakeholders, it can create a more empathetic, connected, and productive workplace.
WENDY GROUNDS: Yeah, Desmond is a great guest. He’s warm, he’s funny, he’s relatable, and he has excellent advice, particularly for project managers who might be feeling some resistance on their teams or struggling with relationships. This is the episode for you.
Hi, Desmond. Welcome to Manage This. Thank you so much for joining us today.
DESMOND LOMAX: Oh, thank you for the invitation. I’m excited to be here.
Meet Desi
WENDY GROUNDS: Desmond, won’t you tell us a little bit about your background, how you got into this?
DESMOND LOMAX: So, I spent 20 years working in the prison system. And so, it’s always, you often say, have to put that “working” in. Like, “I spent 20 years in prison.” And then you go, “I spent 20 years working in the prison system.” Did a bunch of different work. I was a correctional officer. I was a sergeant. And I was miserable. And, like, I’ve got to go back to school. I always knew I had to go back to school.
So, I went back and got my degree at BYU, and then I went to a night school and got my master’s degree in mental health counseling. It takes a lot. I had no idea. Like, the mental health counseling programs are 60 credits, and then you have to do two-year internship. And I’m doing all this with four kids, bless my wife, a full-time job, and just trying to get it done.
BILL YATES: Wow.
DESMOND LOMAX: I got it done. I got my done, my two years in, I was a fully licensed clinician, and my wife got cancer. And so we went through that stage, and she recovered. And in the midst of her recovering and getting cancer again, I got a new job at the prison as a therapist.
So, I went from correctional officer to therapist. And my career just exploded. I got promoted a few times. I became a state director working directly with, like, the executive director of corrections. And I retired managing all programs out of the prison. So, there’s 20,000 people on probation and parole. I helped supervise 12 different facilities, about 50 therapists across the great state of Utah, and spent a lot of time advocating for people to be successful outside of prison.
As a part of that, I was looking for something I could teach my staff to help them humanize the clients that were coming out of prison. Because there’s almost a kind of a culture of consistent dehumanization of people who’ve been incarcerated. And so, I started the Arbinger work. It was a book I had read when I was in grad school. Then I went and got the training and became a trainer. And I trained my whole staff of 50 plus a bunch of others that worked with my staff. I trained all of them. And I sat down with everybody and went through the Arbinger work. Because, you know, as a leader, you’ve got to humanize them and humanize yourself.
So, I used this work with great success. I went from kind of a decent leader to like an award-winning leader. And things were going so well. I’m like, I’d better retire before, you know. Retire on high. So, I retired. And in the process of retirement, Arbinger was growing. And I came over and started this process of facilitating and being a keynote for Arbinger. Yeah, so I’m like, I’ve utilized this stuff as a leader with great success. And now I share it with others.
BILL YATES: That’s fantastic.
How Self-Deception Manifests
WENDY GROUNDS: I really did enjoy the book “Leadership and Self-Deception: The Secret to Transforming Relationships and Unleashing Results.” It was an interesting read. It was easy to read, as well. I really did enjoy that. And so, we want to talk about that. We want to talk about some of the content that we learned through reading that book. The first thing is let’s just find out exactly what is self-deception, and how does it manifest in people?
DESMOND LOMAX: Great question. To put it simply, self-deception is this process we often have when we’re working hard and we’re doing the best we can. And we make assumptions that because we have those elements, that we’re working hard and we’re doing the best we can, that we’re also having a positive impact on everyone around us.
And so, the reality is that, when I’m self-deceived, I’m making assumptions about my impact. I’m making assumptions that everything I’m doing is positive for people around me. And more importantly, I am justifying those things. You know, like instead of getting to the heart of whether I have positive impact or not, I’m allowing justifications to continue this deception that everything that I’m doing is well and good, and there’s very little I need to change. So, self-deception is simply that process of not seeing your impact and how you’re influencing people often in ways that aren’t ideal.
BILL YATES: This is helpful. I think we all have blind spots. So, yeah.
WENDY GROUNDS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We tend to do that. I think I can recognize that even in myself. You think, “Oh, I was really good at that. I did a really good job.” And then you get some feedback, and it’s like this and this and all these things you could have done better.
DESMOND LOMAX: Well, it’s a human dilemma. Like I was telling you a little bit earlier, I call it job security. The reality is that we all, all of us find ourselves in places where even in the midst of doing the best we can, sometimes our impact isn’t the way we want.
BILL YATES: Yeah.
WENDY GROUNDS: Yeah.
DESMOND LOMAX: Whether in our work relationships or in our personal relationships, we find ourselves in that situation, for sure.
Distorting our Perception of Reality
WENDY GROUNDS: How does self-deception distort our perception of reality? Like especially if we’re dealing with colleagues. I think you’ve kind of answered this one, but do you have some more examples of how we can falsify those relationships with colleagues?
DESMOND LOMAX: So, the challenge is that some of the issues we have when I’m going through the self-deception, we call it we’re “inward.” We’re so self-focused with this inward mindset that we’re more focused on how things are impacting us than we are concerned on how we’re impacting others. So anytime we’re in a situation where we’re so focused on what’s impacting us, and we’re blind to how we’re impacting others, you’re going to have poor collaboration.
You’re not going to have a real strong sense of accountability because it’s really about how people are impacting you, not how you’re impacting others. There’s going to be day-to-day significant work issues.
One of the common issues I’ve seen is that when I’m not humanizing a person, and I’m blind to it, that person is going to resist me. They’re going to resist me. Anybody. My favorite example is, if you ever had children, you ever put an 18-month-old in a car seat that didn’t want to get in the car seat, right, it’s like – it’s like bucking a horse. I mean, you’re like trying to drop your elbow down. I mean, like, if an 18-month-old, they don’t feel recognized, if they don’t feel they’re part of the process, if an 18-month-old can resist us, what do we expect from grown adults?
And what we often find is that when I’m in this inward mindset, and I’m so focused on how things are impacting me, and I’m blind to how I’m impacting others, people will have a sense of that. They will feel it, and they’ll resist us.
BILL YATES: Yeah.
WENDY GROUNDS: Mm-hmm.
DESMOND LOMAX: And that resistance is costing our organizations so much time and so many resources.
BILL YATES: That’s so true.
DESMOND LOMAX: I’m not going to be innovative to someone that I resist.
WENDY GROUNDS: Right.
BILL YATES: Mm-hmm.
DESMOND LOMAX: There’s no innovation. If I’m resisting you, innovation’s shot. My ability to come up with ideas or be supportive or pick – I’m just going to sit there, do the bare minimum I know I need to do to maintain my employment, and endure you.
BILL YATES: That’s so true.
DESMOND LOMAX: That’s the challenge with this inward mindset and the self-deception. We spend more time enduring each other, putting up with each other, than what we need to do to be more effective around each other.
Seeing Others as Obstacles
BILL YATES: That’s so true. Desmond, think of “What’s in it for me?” You know, that’s such a common phrase. And it’s good from a project management standpoint to think about that, especially at the beginning of a project, to think, okay, I need to put myself in the shoes of my client as I’m defining the scope of this project. So, what’s in it for them? You know, what’s in it for me? What’s in it for them?
And just have clarity on that. So, the idea of, if we don’t do that, if we do have that inward focus, we tend to shut down those we’re trying to work with. And man, that has big impacts, big negative impacts on getting projects done. This is definitely something that we need to raise the awareness on. Can you give some examples of how this idea of self-deception could lead us to see others as obstacles rather than someone we want to collaborate with?
DESMOND LOMAX: I remember a time I was – that I was struggling with this fellow employee of mine. And instead of walking past her office, I’d go down a flight of stairs, across, and then back up a flight of stairs, just so I didn’t have to have any contact with this person. Now, I know I’m not alone in this. And if I am, it just got really awkward.
BILL YATES: Yup.
DESMOND LOMAX: I know, I know I’m not alone in this. I know one of the things I’ve learned is that when we struggle with people, when people are resisting us, and we’re resisting them, we go out of our way to avoid them. We go out of our way to have minimal contact with them. And that is disastrous in a project management environment.
BILL YATES: Yup.
DESMOND LOMAX: It’s disastrous. It’s like the complete opposite of what we want. So, what we need to recognize is that when we dehumanize others, when we dehumanize, actually we dehumanize ourselves, but that’s a whole different topic. So, when we dehumanize others, what we’re setting ourselves up to is a person who’s going to resist us and avoid us. You have all these different behaviors. Some people will be quiet. Some people will yell. What we’re getting out of people is all of this resistance, and it makes our ability to form effective team groups, just slows the process down.
One other thing, and this is important for those that, like, “What’s the science?” You know, some of the…
BILL YATES: Yeah, yeah.
DESMOND LOMAX: People who feel humanized, people who feel they have purpose at work, people who are willing to take interpersonal risk at work, those people will create greater team dynamics than when that’s not there. It’s all written out in science. So, we have to understand, so if I’m a project manager, and I’m looking around, I’m working with people who aren’t willing to take interpersonal risk with me, then the effectiveness of that team is going to be dramatically less than the people in my team that needs to take interpersonal risk.
So, when we’re doing this, you know, we call these soft skills, whatever you want to call them. I call them people skills. Like when we are creating an environment of humanization that heightens the safety in this group or in these team dynamics, people are more willing to take the necessary interpersonal risk to create efficiency in that group.
An Interpersonal Risk
WENDY GROUNDS: Can you give us an example of an interpersonal risk?
DESMOND LOMAX: Oh, boy. Yeah. You know, I make a comment in a group, like a team meeting, and everyone ignores me. I’m not acknowledged. I’m ignored. Okay? So now I just took an interpersonal risk to share an idea about something I felt would be meaningful, and it was ignored by the group. So how often in the future am I going to be willing to take that interpersonal risk again? And this is project management; right? I now shut down one person in my team because I didn’t acknowledge their comment.
BILL YATES: Right. Yeah.
DESMOND LOMAX: It’s very common, very common in project management. We bring somebody in, they’re a little bit behind; right? So, we make assumptions. They don’t understand what they need to understand. So, they make a comment, and we’re like, “Oh, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,” and we just move on. And then that person’s, “Okay, message sent.”
BILL YATES: Yeah.
WENDY GROUNDS: Right.
DESMOND LOMAX: There’s no [crosstalk] meeting now.
WENDY GROUNDS: Yeah.
DESMOND LOMAX: Like my paycheck.
BILL YATES: Right. That’s a good example, yeah.
DESMOND LOMAX: Yeah.
An Inward Mindset
WENDY GROUNDS: Yeah. Something else you talked about was an inward mindset. Can you talk about how to recognize when someone is coming from an inward mindset as opposed to an outward mindset?
DESMOND LOMAX: Yeah. So, I like to tell people stories. So, I’ll tell you a story. Anyway, when I first started Arbinger, I was teaching my kids this Arbinger stuff. They were just, just at the budge, like 12 and 14. Like at the budge, they were my younger two. I call them my JV squad. And I’ve got the older two, but I was just talking to the JV squad. They were 12 and 14 at the time. I’m all excited about this Arbinger stuff. And I’m explaining it to them. I’m like, “Okay, so when Dad’s inward, what does it look like?” Because there’s something in Arbinger we teach as like red flags. Like you can usually tell. And I was explaining to them, like, “You can tell when people are inward. They’re self-focused. What do I do? How do I behave?”
Man, my kids didn’t even blink. They didn’t even have to think about it. It wasn’t, “Uh, um.” They were like, “Yeah, Dad, you get loud, and you get defensive.” He goes, “Yeah. You start calling yourself, you start victimizing yourself, calling yourself the black ATM. All you want to use me for is money. You victimize yourself, you get loud, you get defensive, and then you, you know, you avoid us. You get away from us.”
BILL YATES: Yeah.
DESMOND LOMAX: And you know what I did? Oh, my goodness, I went upstairs. I’m like, “Ah, I’m done with you kids.” I did exactly what they told me I would. You know, I just, I was just like, ah, I go upstairs. And I’m laying in my bed. I’m like, oh my goodness, like, people know. I might not know when I’m inward and self-focused, like. But the people around me know exactly when I am self-concerned about myself to the point where my kids could just boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, just like that.
BILL YATES: Yeah, that’s good.
DESMOND LOMAX: And so, the problem with being inward is we’re blind to our inwardness. And so, if we’re not picking up on our behaviors, our comments, the ways we see the world when we’re inward, we may not recognize that we’re inward in those moments. That is the challenge for all of us.
Overcoming an Inward Mindset
BILL YATES: Yeah. So how do we overcome that? If we’re stuck in that mindset, I guess it starts with awareness. How do we become aware that we’re there unless we could call your teenagers and ask them? And then what do we do about it? How do we shift out of it?
DESMOND LOMAX: So, here’s a beautiful point, and I can’t stress this enough. This is, for me, this was really healthy because this work can be hard. Because it’s not just a series of tools. It’s a way that I decide to show up in my life. That’s the challenge with the Arbinger work is that we give you tools, but we’re also grounding you in a philosophy about how you show up.
And so, the first thing I needed to understand is, is that Desi, no matter how hard you try, no matter what you do, you’re not going to have the impact you think you’re having. And that’s okay. No one in this world has a hundred percent positive impact. So, it’s okay to ask people. I don’t have to be afraid of being wrong. The fear of being wrong is the number one hindrance of me being blind to my impact on other people. That’s the hindrance. The hindrance is that someone might actually do what my kids did to me and just let boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
BILL YATES: Yeah.
DESMOND LOMAX: But we shouldn’t be afraid of that. Because if I’m a project manager, and my behaviors and how I see people are getting in the way of my efficiency and me being effective, I should be alive to that. I should expect that. I shouldn’t be surprised by it. I’m a human. We don’t have positive impact on everybody.
So, for me, it’s just that deep understanding that I will find myself in situations where my impact is not positive. And if I’m a really good leader, I will seek that out and improve upon that element of how I do my work and how I do the things I do. So, the first of it is just that acceptance that you’re not going have all the positive impact that you want.
I think the other part is, once we get that figured out, then I call them like we have a series of impact questions. I’ve normalized asking questions about my impact. Not a one-off, not like once every year doing evaluation sessions. Oh, we’re doing your yearly evaluation. How can I better help you, like once a year?
BILL YATES: Yeah.
DESMOND LOMAX: And that person’s like, ah, you good. Right? But if in my questioning in our week-to-week conferences and our week-to-week meetings, if I’ve normalized, hey, how’s things going? What can I do in my role to better impact you? What are the things we’re doing as a team that are working? And what are some of the things you’ve seen in the past that we can implement in our group?
Like if I approach it with a series of impact questions, with a series of curiosity, with an expectation that everything I do isn’t going to have a positive impact, and I normalize that, I create a space to create the dialogue to get things moving.
BILL YATES: That’s so good. When I think of one of the conversations that we have with project managers in our training, which is we encourage them along these lines, have one-on-one conversations with team members. This is, you know, not a formal setting. This is just, hey, I want to check in with you. Do this periodically and ask them three questions. As leader of this team, what should I keep doing? What should I stop doing? What should I start doing? And just getting their perspectives on that. And then, you know, you may have eight team members, so you may get eight different answers on those.
You’ll probably have some commonality, though. You’ll probably get that message. They may not be as succinct or as on-point or ready as your teenagers, again, but they’ll find, okay, he’s serious and he’s going to take action on this as the leader of this team. So, then they’ll start to put some thought into it and anticipate when you’re going to ask them again. But what should I keep doing? What should I stop doing? What should I start doing? It’s along those lines, but it takes a lot of vulnerability. It takes a lot of guts to do that.
DESMOND LOMAX: Yeah, I’ve learned it’s not vulnerable at all when you realize it’s just a human expectation that I’m going to fall short of time. Like when I’m vulnerable in this situation, there’s a belief that I’m falling short in some way, and I’m somehow, like, tormented by it.
The reality is we all fall short because we’re all so different from each other. Like, you know, there are people that love me. There are people that cry when they see me walk, “Oh my goodness, it’s Desmond.” And there are other people that cry because they’re just tired of me. “Oh, my goodness, it’s Desmond.” And so, I think it’s important to, like, let that lead your life and just be more courageous, just like you said, around the people that you know. We know. This is what I’ve learned. We know.
BILL YATES: Yeah.
How We Dehumanize People
DESMOND LOMAX: We know that person that maybe we aren’t responding to, and they’re not responding to us. We know that person that, like, we struggle with having in-depth conversations when things go wrong. We know these people. And we engage these people. And sometimes we let them off the hook for fear they might tell us something about ourselves that we might not enjoy. So, we’re dehumanizing them and ourselves. That is the art of dehumanization right there. My belief is that if I had a meaningful conversation with you, that all you’ll do is complain and tell me what I’m doing wrong.
And when I dehumanize people like that, I could show up and have all the most wonderful questions in the world. But if instantly I show up, and I’m oozing resistance to everything you’re responding to, it’s like, it just – We also, at the Arbinger, we’re like, what is your mindset? Like how are you choosing to show up?
If you see this person as an object, they’re going to have the sense, and they’re going to resist. And these questions, they’ll give you a few answers, but they won’t give you everything. If I feel dehumanized, I’ll be like, “Yeah, I like how you do this. I like how you do that. If we could have coffee in our meeting, that would be nice.” I mean, like, they’ll keep it surface.
BILL YATES: Yeah. Yup.
DESMOND LOMAX: When a person can look you in the eyes and honestly sense that you are curious, that you want to be better, and that you as a human are connecting with their humanity, people will tell you all kinds of stuff. Oh, my goodness.
How to Change a Mindset
WENDY GROUNDS: Yeah. How do you initiate or carry out a mindset change? Not just a behavioral change, but how do you change a mindset?
DESMOND LOMAX: Woohoo, how much time do we have? Are we [crosstalk] now?
WENDY GROUNDS: We can keep going. We can make it a twofer.
DESMOND LOMAX: What are we talking for? You know what? The wonders of this work is that mindset change, sometimes we go to trainings, and the trainings are fix this, fix that, do this, do that, catch you in a year; right? Mindset training is very self-evalutative. Like I’m self-evaluating all the time. How I’m choosing to show up, what does it look like? I wake up in the morning, and I’m packing up my stuff in a hotel room, and I ask myself, “Desi, what is it like to clean up after you?”
BILL YATES: Huh. Okay.
DESMOND LOMAX: What is it like? What is it like to be a person making minimal wages, and they come into this hotel room of many hotel rooms they have to clean up, and they have to clean up after you? Do you make things easy on them, Desi? Or do they come in that room like, “Oh, good gracious. Really?”
BILL YATES: What happened in here?
DESMOND LOMAX: Yeah, yeah. So, like, humanization or the mindset change really starts with a day-to-day evaluation of how I’m choosing to humanize the people around me; and, very importantly, how I’m choosing to humanize myself. So, this is not a one-sided thing where I need to be alive to everyone else’s humanity and forsake my own. That’s what burnout comes from.
BILL YATES: Right.
DESMOND LOMAX: So, when we talk about changing this mindset, it’s like people have to matter like I matter. And I’m just simply taking them into account. And I have to ask myself, “Do I matter?” That’s reality. Most people I’ve learned that struggle with humanizing others don’t see themselves as people. They don’t humanize themselves outside of what’s impacting me and self-preservation. What a crappy way to exist. This is the number one thing I tell people all the time. I’ve existed this way at work before where all I was about was my self-preservation and worried about how things were impacting me. And work sucked.
BILL YATES: Yeah.
DESMOND LOMAX: And so, to move people from that mindset change of how is everything impacting me and self-preservation to how do I impact every problem, what influence do I have, is we believe in Arbinger, like the change that creates productivity and team dynamics in ways that, like, we haven’t seen before.
To move from that shift, from that inward mindset of how’s everything impacting me and self-preservation to the outward mindset of how am I impacting every problem that I’m facing is super key. So, for us, it’s self-evaluative, and it’s a process. And then, like you said, you have to pick up on those keys when I’m inward. The goal is not to be this, you know, we give you an outward mindset certificate, you’re like, outward, count me in.
BILL YATES: Mm-hmm, check.
DESMOND LOMAX: And that’s what we’ve got to tell people. No, that’s not the goal. The goal of an outward mindset certificate is like, man, I think I have some more training to recognize when I’m inward and to move towards seeing people in ways that allow me to be more effective in my work and in my personal life. That’s the move. To get a certificate to recognize those moments when I’m so self-focused that it’s really impacting my way to have meaningful relationships.
BILL YATES: Yeah, that’s good.
Kevin and Kyle
KEVIN RONEY: I have a question for our listeners. Do any of you struggle with low self-confidence? Low self-confidence is a problem that can hold you back from achieving your potential. This can be in your personal or your professional life.
KYLE CROWE: You’re right! When you’re confident in your abilities, it’s easier to be the project leader that inspires confidence in others. Your self-confidence goes a long way to boosting the confidence of your teams, sponsors, clients, or stakeholders.
KEVIN RONEY: There can be a number of things that cause of a lack of self-confidence. It could originate in childhood – if we received negative messages. It could be stress or difficult life events. And it could also be personality – some folks are just more prone to negative thoughts.
KYLE CROWE: If you are up against a crisis, your stakeholders need to be assured they can have confidence in you to manage the problem. If you have low self-confidence, we can suggest some help to turn that around! The first step is just to be kind to yourself! We’re most often our own worst critic.
KEVIN RONEY: And the second step is – we recommend an excellent Velociteach Insite course by Neal Whitten called: 25 ACTIONS TO BUILD YOUR SELF-CONFIDENCE. This course identifies actions you can take to build and maintain your self-confidence. Check it out!
Self-Deception vs. Self-Betrayal
WENDY GROUNDS: There was one other little word that popped in there was self-betrayal that I wanted to ask you about. So, there’s a connection between our self-deception and self-betrayal. Can you explain a little bit more about that relationship?
DESMOND LOMAX: Yes. And so, the way it works out is that self-deception is a problem of not knowing when I create problems for people. It’s usually incident to incident. This is one thing where there’s some self-deception. Self-betrayal is more of a constant ongoing thing. So, as I self-deceive, eventually the way I choose to see my world, it becomes just a reoccurring thing.
So first it was just self-deception with my wife. Now it’s self-betrayal with the family as a whole, and self-betrayal as I go to work. And so when we look at things like self-betrayal, it’s just this chronic issue, this chronic repeated systematic issue of not seeing another person’s humanity. When self-deception is typically an event, a one-off, a situation where, you know, I’m not seeing people, I’m not identifying their humanity. Self-betrayals now, I’m carrying that lens with me everywhere I go.
BILL YATES: Wow. Almost like a narcissist.
DESMOND LOMAX: Narcissists are weak. Generally weak. This is not a sign. There are a lot of people that carry around self-betrayal that are very confident, very productive humans in a lot of different senses, but they still use self-betrayal as a justification to treat people the way they choose to treat them.
BILL YATES: Got it, yeah.
DESMOND LOMAX: It’s fascinating to me, like when I have a good relationship with someone, I always tell people, we all have that grandpa, that uncle where we’re like, “Grandpa, you can’t say that anymore.” But, like, why is it that our racist grandpa is still the most loving person on the planet; right? It’s because we have love, and we’ve been treated fairly, and we know that grandpa is more than the significant deficiency.
And I always say, I wish we could treat everybody that way, to be clear. I don’t think we do. But anyway, so basically what I’m saying is that when we look at self-deception, and we look at self-betrayal, and we look at the chronic nature of these things, particularly, you know, if I’m self-deceiving and self-betraying myself, I’ll find myself spending a lot of emotional and cognitive energy justifying why people don’t matter like I matter.
WENDY GROUNDS: Gosh.
BILL YATES: Wow.
DESMOND LOMAX: We see it in our politics. We see it in our relationships at work and in our personal relationships. A lot of times we spend so much time trying to explain why other people don’t matter, why specific groups don’t matter, why specific, you know, HR, why do they matter? They’re not making any revenue. We’re the revenue people. What does HR do?
You know, or we spend so much time justifying why we’re better than people or worse than people that we rarely see them in a way to create the efficiencies and effectiveness we need to do our work. That’s the problem with self-betrayal and self-deception. In the process of all this justification, all this self-preservation, we’re not seeing people in ways that we can add innovation to who they are to improve our relationship with them.
Impact of Self-Deception on Team Morale
WENDY GROUNDS: So, we want to also look at particularly teams, how this impacts a team for project managers leading a team. If you think about the impact that self-deception can have on team morale and a workplace culture, what are signs that one should be looking out for, and how does this impact the team?
DESMOND LOMAX: A sign that you’ve been super inward is when you ask for feedback, and you get none. That’s when you know you’re done. You’ve done, how do I say, we say “You done screwed up.”
WENDY GROUNDS: Yeah.
BILL YATES: Yup.
DESMOND LOMAX: When you ask for feedback, and you get none, that’s a challenge. Another challenge, and there’s multiples, when I’m in a team, I’m a team dynamic, and everything has to run through me. And so, the accountability simply falls deeply on the project manager, and everyone’s letting you have it, too.
You know, one of the most common things I’ve seen is that, if you’re inward, and you’re self-focused, and everything’s got to run through you, then I have minimal accountability. My job gets easier. I’m just going to leave it on you and have you tell me what I need to do, and when I need to do it, and how I need to do it. That’s when you know it’s problematic, that I have to chase people. If you’re chasing people to do your work, you’re doing it in an inward way.
BILL YATES: That’s funny. I was watching, my wife and I enjoy watching cooking shows, cooking competitions. And there were two teams competing against each other, maybe five or six on each team. One of the chefs was asking the chef who was the captain, “How do you want me to slice the tomatoes?” Of course, the time’s running. There’s a clock always with these things. And the captain of the team was like, “I don’t have time to – you’re a chef. Just cut the tomatoes. You know what we’re cooking.” And, you know, it’s like, no. If this isn’t what the judges are looking for, then it’s not going to be on me. It’s going to be on you. It’s all in on the captain.
And yeah, I think for project teams we can do the same thing. If we feel like the leader of the team is inward focused, then yeah. Okay. You want the accountability, you want the win, if we win, that means you get all the accountability. So, I’m just going to push everything on you. Every email that I get, or every time you’re asking me to make a decision or a recommendation, it’s going right back to you.
DESMOND LOMAX: Yeah.
BILL YATES: That’s not productive at all.
DESMOND LOMAX: Yeah, yup, that’s a great example. That’s a great – and I watch those shows, as well. And you often see people, like, step away from basic things just because they’re afraid to fail. And the captain will get the, “Oh, it was on him. He’s getting kicked out first.”
BILL YATES: He’s the captain.
Create a High-Efficiency Environment
DESMOND LOMAX: And it’s just, it’s unreal. But you know what? That’s common. It’s common. Like recently, like, we talk about, we create these, like, intense, high, you know, this is high-stressed environment. You know, we talk about those in the project management world, high-stress environments. So, we’ve got deadlines. We’ve got this. And we’ve got that. And I’ve always laughed. I’m like, why not create a high-efficiency environment? We’ve got people bragging, “We’ve got a high-stress environment. Either you sink or swim.”
When people work, and they shuttle off, or they burn out, or they, you know, they’re existing in this, and they struggle at home, and they struggle at work. Why not create high-efficiency environments where you get benefit from being highly efficient at the work you do? Maybe it’s a four-day work schedule. Maybe it’s a week off for Christmas. Who knows? But the reality is, when we’re high efficient, and we’re being awarded for high efficiency, then most people are more likely to find the work-life balance where it’s not as, you know, these high-stress environments where people go home, and they’re still stressed at home. And they come in, and they bring it back.
BILL YATES: Yeah.
DESMOND LOMAX: And so, I think, like, when we are so self-focused on what needs to get done, and we’re blind to the people that are getting it done, those are signs that we’re inward. We’re creating high-stress environments instead of highly efficient environments.
Be Willing to be Vulnerable
BILL YATES: Yeah. I was thinking one of the things I wanted to bring up with you, Desmond, I was thinking about high-stress environments and a quote from Navy SEAL trainer, a Team 6 leader. He’s a pretty famous guy, Dave Cooper. And, you know, if you think about, okay, their training and the things that they do on the job are truly high stress, you know, for all the projects I’ve worked on, it doesn’t even compare to what a Navy SEAL would have to do.
And he said the most powerful words that a leader like he does, and those that he trains up, the most powerful words that leader can say is “I screwed that up,” you know, to the team. “I screwed that up,” showing that vulnerability as a leader, showing that openness, that that has just the opposite effect of what we were talking about where, okay, team members are all wanting to push everything back on the leader, when the leader comes out and says, “Okay, let’s take a look back at how things went and how can we improve. Let me go first. I screwed that up. Let me describe what happened, the bad decision I made. Here’s how I think I’d do it next time. What do you guys think?”
DESMOND LOMAX: Yeah. No, I think that’s beautiful. I have never been a Navy SEAL. I have been through SWAT school. And I went through five days of SWAT school, and I think I lost 15 pounds.
BILL YATES: Wow.
DESMOND LOMAX: I don’t know what – I don’t know what, like, six months, a year of Navy SEAL, I don’t know what that does to the body.
BILL YATES: Yeah, I can’t imagine.
DESMOND LOMAX: I will say that when your life is on the line, people are more willing to be authentic about what they’ve got wrong for the sake of the team.
BILL YATES: Yeah.
DESMOND LOMAX: And so definitely that Navy SEALs leader is leading the pack with that, and it would be foolish for him not to when your life is on the line. And I think there’s a direct application to business, and I think he’s clearly making that, is that when we are willing to be vulnerable and talk about what we’ve done wrong, that’s okay. I tell people all the time, you know, Arbinger, we hire, we’ve been hiring a bunch of people. And I tell people all the time, “Listen, I’m not the Desi from the videos.” Right? You know what I’m saying?
BILL YATES: Yeah.
DESMOND LOMAX: Like, I know you’ve been watching all these videos. And now that I’m in front of you, I’m not the Desi from the videos. I’m not the Desi you see on keynotes and that. I’m a human being that will piss you off at some point. And what I want to make sure is that, when that happens, you feel confident enough to call me so we can figure it out.
BILL YATES: Exactly.
DESMOND LOMAX: What happens is, just like that, if I’m not being vulnerable of what I’ve done wrong, if not creating systems to talk about what’s wrong, then what we find is I know people in workplaces that had relationships for years with people they don’t see eye to eye with. They’re just giving breadcrumbs of each other. Like just enough to make sure the work is kind of getting done.
And instead of saying, “This frustrates me, and this was hard, and you did this right there, and it really affected how I did my work,” instead of having a meaningful, you’re a person, I’m a person, let’s have a meaningful conversation, instead we dehumanize each other, and we avoid each other, and we’re costing our organization so much time and resources. And so, so I love that. A leader that’s vulnerable is creating an environment where we’re going to be more likely to get things done, for sure.
Inspiring Team Members to be Outward
WENDY GROUNDS: Tying into that, if you get a leader who is trying that, who’s trying to be more open, have more of an outward mindset, but they’re hitting against team members who have a very inward mindset, who are very self-deceived in the way that they’re approaching the team and the work, how can they inspire their team members to be more outward?
DESMOND LOMAX: You know, that’s fascinating. I would say be more self-aware. I’ve always said emotions are valid. Your experiences with people are true. Like I’m saying, I’m not, I’d never debate that. If someone says, “This person, Desi, is an ass,” I’ll look at them and say, “Okay, I see that.” Like if they’re an ass, they’re an ass. Like I’m not going to debate that. If that’s been your personal experience, I’m not going to debate that. What I often debate is how we choose to show up.
You’re going to have difficult experiences. You’re going to have difficult things. And then now as a leader you need to show up in ways, consistently show up in ways, where people have a sense that they matter to you, that they really matter to you. And so that’s what I would do. Start the process of seeing and just be a little more, just take a little deep breath and be a little more sensitive to, “I wonder how people feel when they’re around me when we’re working.” Maybe sensitive. We pick up on some of those nonverbal cues, the people happy to see me, but they come in with a notepad with that look on their face like, “Huh.”
BILL YATES: Or they’re walking all the way around the building to avoid you.
DESMOND LOMAX: Yeah, or they walk around the building. Yeah. No, for sure.
WENDY GROUNDS: So, it’s really about setting the example.
DESMOND LOMAX: Yes. Yeah. It’s about setting the example. It’s about it’s okay to be a little more self-aware of how we’re impacting people. And it’s really about, I often say, I don’t know if this was every organization, but like I would say the average project manager, if they’re human like I know they are, they’ll spend about 80% of their resources on about 20 or 25% of the people they’re struggling most with.
BILL YATES: Yup.
DESMOND LOMAX: Would you agree with that statement?
BILL YATES: Absolutely.
DESMOND LOMAX: That’s not – not even 80%. Let’s just say more than half of our resources go towards a small percentage of people that are creating challenges for us.
BILL YATES: Yup.
DESMOND LOMAX: And so, I would say that the Arbinger tools are really geared towards those people. The people I get along with, the people I respond with, the people where it’s easier to sense their humanity, and we connect, that’s good. I call that a good day’s work. The people that are going to be resisting me in some way, that’s where these tools come in. Like the people I continually struggle with. And it’s hard for me to solicit accountability, and I’m chasing them for their work product and all those type of things. That’s where the Arbinger tools come in. And we found that, when people feel humanized, we don’t have to hold them accountable. We can help create accountability within them.
BILL YATES: Good. Yeah. That’ll make a difference.
The Arbinger Institute
WENDY GROUNDS: Give us a description of what the Arbinger Institute does.
DESMOND LOMAX: Yeah, so the Arbinger Institute is a consulting and a training firm. And so we do a little bit of everything, from helping you do the proper research for outcomes, to helping you understand and flesh out your problems, to running you through the Arbinger frameworks to help address those problems, to doing post surveys to see progression, to doing implementation sessions, group implementation sessions to drive home the learning so it’s not a one-and-done training, to executive implementation sessions, helping executives implement the work through the course of a one to, you know, five-year strategy plan, all the way to individual coaching, like one-on-one individual coaching and group coaching. But we do all of those things under this philosophy and understanding of self-portrayal and the inward and outward framework.
Get in Touch
WENDY GROUNDS: Desmond, if our audience wants to get in touch, if they have questions or they want to find out more, where should they go?
DESMOND LOMAX: Just www.arbinger.com, Arbinger, A-R-B-I-N-G-E-R dot com. Like Desmond Lomax, you can find me on LinkedIn. So, add me on LinkedIn. And then from adding me, you can find Arbinger. We’re all, you know, LinkedIn all over the place. Where there is an Internet, there is Arbinger. You can go to YouTube if you want some cool videos. If this resonates, I have a few speeches on YouTube. If it doesn’t resonate, there’s other leaders, you know, other people’s organizations. Like I said, I can’t be everything for everybody.
BILL YATES: Exactly.
DESMOND LOMAX: You understand this. But you can go to YouTube and just type in “Arbinger.” We have so many amazing people. We have all kinds of avenues to learn this work.
BILL YATES: Desmond, this has been such a helpful conversation. You know, as I described to you before we started recording, this area is just, it’s an area where project managers as leaders are always in need of growth. And this self-awareness of a common struggle is a great start in that area. First of all, thank you for being funny. This was a deep and at times a kind of a troubling topic to know that we all have blind spots. We all fall into self-deception from time to time. But you made it fun, you made it approachable, you gave us good stories, and I really appreciate that. And thank you for all that you’ve done. And you’ve certainly earned every bit of wisdom that you have imparted with us for all the years that you’ve served communities in Utah, and now where you are, as well.
DESMOND LOMAX: Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. I take these invitations. I’m humbled. Like, this is great. Thank you for the invitation. Hopefully there’s some meaning. We connect with people like, people are like, what do you do for a living? I go, I help highly efficient people be a little bit better.
BILL YATES: That’s it.
DESMOND LOMAX: That’s my goal. So hopefully anybody that listened to this comes away just a little bit better than where they were before they listened to it. We saw its success.
WENDY GROUNDS: Yeah. That’s the goal of our podcast is just to help people be better, as well, yeah.
DESMOND LOMAX: Awesome, folks. Well, thank you. I appreciate your time. Hopefully that was helpful.
WENDY GROUNDS: Very much so, thank you.
BILL YATES: Absolutely.
Closing
WENDY GROUNDS: That’s it for us here on Manage This. Thank you for joining us today. We want to take a moment to say thank you to our listeners who reach out to us. If you leave comments on our website or on social media, we love hearing from you. We appreciate your positive ratings on Apple podcasts or whichever podcast listening app you use. Please do get in touch, leave us a comment at Velociteach.com or on social media, and let us know what you like to hear more of, as well. We like to make our episodes something that you’d want to hear more about. So, if you have some suggestions of project managers who are doing amazing projects or topics that would be very helpful to you in your career, please let us know.
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