AI is rapidly reshaping project management, pushing routine tasks to automation and elevating the need for human judgment. Peter Taylor warns that this shift may create The Invisible Project Manager, a role focused less on administration and more on strategic leadership, influence, and ethical decision making as PMs learn to lead forward towards the future and guide AI driven work.
Chapters
00:00 … Intro
01:05 … Is AI Reshaping Project Management Faster Than We Think?
02:25 … The Invisible Project Manager
02:48 … Are Project Managers in Denial About AI?
04:02 … Will the Traditional Project Manager Become Obsolete?
05:59 … The Rise of the Invisible Project Manager
07:20 … Why Project Managers Matter More in an AI World
09:20 … Where AI Is Already Helping Project Managers Today
12:08 … Using AI More Strategic Decision-Making
13:57 … Productivity Gains vs. People Decisions
17:04 … More Projects, Fewer Managers?
20:39… From Managing Tasks to Orchestrating Outcomes
22:17 … Who Thrives and Who Gets Left Behind?
24:12 … Becoming Guardians of Outcomes
26:23 … The Risks of Letting AI Take the Wheel
29:47 … Will AI Lead to Upskilling or Job Cuts?
32:11 … How Project Managers Can Stay Relevant
33:47 … Drawing the Ethical Line for AI Decisions
34:48 … Connect with Peter
36:51 … Closing
Introduction
PETER TAYLOR: It’s not scaremongering. I think it’s a wakeup call of reality of what’s coming and the opportunity for what’s coming. The only scary bit is if you just put your head down and don’t take a notice.
WENDY GROUNDS: Welcome to Manage This, the podcast by project managers for project managers. And we’re so grateful that you are joining us today.
In this episode, we’re joined by a well-recognized voice in the project management world. Our guest is Peter Taylor. He is a keynote speaker, trainer, and best-selling author known for his work in project management. He wrote a best-selling book called “The Lazy Winning Project Manager,” along with several other titles focused on leadership, PMOs, and project deliveries.
Over the course of his career, Peter has built and led some of the largest PMOs in the world and is widely recognized for helping shape many of the foundational principles of modern PMO design. He has delivered more than 530 lectures across 28 countries and has been described as perhaps the most entertaining and inspiring speaker in the project management world today.
Is AI Reshaping Project Management Faster Than We Think?
BILL YATES: Here are three things to listen for in this episode. With our conversation with Peter, we’re going to talk about the question of are project managers underestimating how quickly AI is reshaping their work? Secondly, is the traditional PM role already becoming obsolete? And then third, third thought, what happens when AI agents can coordinate schedules, generate plans, monitor risk, and even support decision-making faster than humans ever could? Then what’s left for the project manager to do? We’ll talk about that with Peter.
WENDY GROUNDS: Peter has written a book called “The Invisible Project Manager: Why Artificial Intelligence Will Run Tomorrow’s Projects Without You.” This book is an essential, thought-provoking guide for project managers. What if your role didn’t exist? Peter asks the uncomfortable questions about the impact on this profession from the rise of AI. Hi, Peter. Welcome to Manage This. We’re so excited to talk to you today.
PETER TAYLOR: I’m delighted to be here. Thank you for inviting me on.
WENDY GROUNDS: Yeah, it’s been a while. I’ve seen some of the work you’ve done, and I’ve listened to some of your podcasts. And so, it’s definitely been at the back of my mind. I always want to have Peter on the podcast. So, I’m glad we got this, got this.
PETER TAYLOR: Perfect. Perfect. Yeah, I’ll be around for a while. So, yeah, we’ve lots to talk about.
The Invisible Project Manager
WENDY GROUNDS: Yes, yes. And we want you to tell us a little bit about some of the work that you’ve done. You have just written a book called “The Invisible Project Manager.”
PETER TAYLOR: That’s the newest one, yeah. I did write “The Lazy Winning Project Manager,” which is a third edition of the famous “Lazy Project Manager.” But the new book is called “The Invisible Project Manager.” It’s all about what’s going on with AI and what’s that going to do to our professions?
Are Project Managers in Denial About AI?
WENDY GROUNDS: Yeah, so let’s jump in straight away. The first question I have about that is, do you believe that project managers are in denial about how quickly the project management profession is being disrupted by AI?
PETER TAYLOR: The short answer is yes. I think a lot of project managers are. I mean, I have to admit for myself. So, I wrote a book, I think it was four years ago, which was “AI and the Project Manager.” And that was all – I was trying to wake up the profession because nobody, nobody – it seems amazing now, doesn’t it. Nobody seems to be talking about it. I was going to conferences, and it just wasn’t mentioned. And I wrote the book just to go, “Hey, hey, guys, I think something’s coming here.”
Now, you know, at that point, I was thinking this is going to come in gradually. But actually, the reason for “The Invisible Project Manager” is because, through personal practice and experience and talking to people, it’s coming in faster than we could ever imagine, I think, or could have imagined, I mean, certainly. So, I honestly believe that there is a mixture out there.
I think there is a whole community that are a little bit in denial, perhaps. I think there’s a community that are a little bewildered, are worried. And I think that there’s a smaller community that are going, hey, I’m grabbing this. I’m going to get involved with this. And, you know, and I think that’s the challenge right now is it’s split those three ways.
Will the Traditional Project Manager Become Obsolete?
BILL YATES: So, you’ve made a bold claim. Peter, you’ve said that the project manager as we know it today is becoming obsolete. What led you to that conclusion, and when is this happening?
PETER TAYLOR: So, I’m going to say a lot during this podcast but I don’t have a crystal ball. Let’s be clear about that. But I have projected my experience and my thoughts onto our profession. And I think there’s a fundamental thing here that we have to talk about. There is no one thing called projects or project management. That’s very, very important. If I reflect on my own world, I worked for technology companies over the years. And our job is we, you know, the company sells its technology in various industries. And our job then is to take project managers, work with them, and help them deliver the benefits to the customers.
Now, in that world – and it’s the world that’s not always talked about, although it’s huge. And you imagine all of the, you know, the SaaS environments out there around the world. Most of our technology we use is kind of a SaaS-based technology. So, it’s huge. But those projects are highly repeatable. They’re always unique, yes. They are temporary, of course, all of the usual tick box of what is a project. But they are highly repeatable. So, in that world, I believe the project manager will become obsolete as AI rides up and takes over more and more and more.
Now, that doesn’t mean there won’t be another version of the project manager in that world. In the other world, you know, the big, hairy, scary projects, you know, you talk about in the UK, we’re all excited about HS2 and how it’s three times over budget and 10 years late. Wuppy duppy. No. In that world, no, no, AI is not going to be the program director or the senior project manager or anything like that. But they are still going to be massively aided by their digital partnership. You know, AI will provide masses of insights and guidance to support them. But it won’t take over. So, I think you have to be very clear that there are those two paths.
The Rise of the Invisible Project Manager
BILL YATES: So, what exactly do you mean by the “invisible” project manager?
PETER TAYLOR: I think, well, what I mean by it is, if you like, if I reflect on my own career, I have been visible all the time. You know, I’m on calls. I’ve got meetings I’m attending, I’m talking to stakeholders, I’m – escalation meetings, of course, as well. You know, I’m not perfect. And so, I’ve been very, very visible. In fact, visibility is probably one of the most important things. Communication, massive. And that communication comes from being visible, being in meetings, attending calls, turning up on client sites, all of that.
But I think in the future, if you think about what I’ve just said about the two types of projects out there, I think there is, again, that range of projects where the project manager becomes a lot quieter, a little – not in your face. I think we’re going to see where the projects will move forward steadily. And if as long as there are no exceptions, behavioral exceptions, issues, escalations, misunderstanding perhaps between, you know, various stakeholders, where it may be, as long as it progresses smoothly, then the project manager will become almost invisible, I believe, because they don’t need to be involved.
They will be monitoring from behind the scenes. They don’t have to get engaged. It’ll be by exception. They will get – they will become visible by exception, I believe, as opposed to being predominantly there all the time.
Why Project Managers Matter More in an AI World
BILL YATES: Yeah. And I get it. I’m picking up what you’re putting down, as we like to say. So, the role of the project manager in the future, I think you’re hitting on some key traits in what you’re saying here. It depends on the complexity of the project; the technology that’s being used or not; the repeatability, how, you know, if it’s a highly repeatable type of project, then is the PM role as we know it today really needed? Maybe not. How visible is the project manager needing to be in that project? Is there a lot of customer-facing or public-facing?
Exceptions and escalations, that’s a great point, too. There are times when I need somebody, I need Peter there to help me decide if I should escalate this or not. All those to me are factors that say, okay, the project manager role, it’s going to be higher stakes. It’s going to require more, more skill, perhaps, than what we’ve seen in the past. But there’s certainly a future role for the project manager. You know, again, taking into account what AI can do and cannot do well.
PETER TAYLOR: If you think about it, I think we’re used to this non-human engagement. You know, perhaps not to same scale; but you know, Amazon, good example. I’ve never talked to anybody from Amazon, and I’ve had issues. PayPal, another one. I can’t remember. There’s a – I mention it in the book, I think. But there’s a huge number of effectively legal disputes that go on are completely managed without human intervention. You know, finances, my bank, for example. Again, I, well, I can’t remember the last time I had a human intervention. And yet stuff goes on. Moving stuff around, counts, questions. Or it may be applications. It is all almost fully automated.
So, we have this tendency that we actually like this. Someone said, when I did one of my presentations, they made the point about actually the biggest problem with my projects is people, is when people get involved, that’s the problem, individuals, personalities, egos, all the fat. Get rid of that, life’s happy.
Where AI Is Already Helping Project Managers Today
WENDY GROUNDS: You’ve given us examples of where AI is kind of taking over and doing the job. As AI matures, how can project managers find real world opportunities where they can apply this? Can you give some examples really of what is possible for project managers? What are they to be doing?
PETER TAYLOR: What I tell people right now is, you know, get involved, get engaged, and start using this kind of technology where you’re allowed to. Now, again, when it’s talking, you know, the organizations, there’s a degree of control and discipline. There’s data protection, securities, you know, it is, you know, in my previous organization I worked for, we had an issue where people were going out and grabbing these tools and starting to use them. And suddenly, whoa, scary, you know, customer data is being used in an uncontrolled situation.
So, there’s a whole raft of caveats here, and hopefully most major organizations these days have an AI guidance council or something, you know, if you have questions there.
But what can you use it for? I mean, the first thing that my PMO got involved in was starting to look at some of the language capabilities, translational. You know, communication sits at the heart of project management, and it’s a huge amount of what we do is communication. And in my world, we were working with project teams all over the place – culturally, language, et cetera. Business language was English, but the reality is, even in English – and I remember a great conversation with an Australian when I started talking about fortnights and bimonthly and things like that. It means different things around the world.
BILL YATES: Right.
PETER TAYLOR: Yeah. So, I went to a conference just, you know, a few months ago, and it was in Germany, and the presentations were in German or English. But we were using our earbuds and our mobile phones, and you had a QR code, and it was translating for you, and it was pretty good. Wasn’t perfect. Of course it wasn’t perfect. But I can understand what was going on in the German language presentations, the ability to use technology like that with instant translation, et cetera.
Now, again, that’s, you know, nice. I was talking to a few people who are translational experts, et cetera, and, you know, our business is going in many cases. The big conference is no longer needed because AI’s taken over.
This is a reality wherever you go, but I think project managers right now, I mean, you know, mostly they’re using this kind of capability. They’re using note taking on calls such as the one that we’re on right now, for example, summarization, all that effort of having putting things together and writing up meetings because you haven’t got time actually because you’re going to another meeting. All of that I think are great starting points, but the real value won’t come until, you know, the businesses actually take the whole of the project lifecycle and apply those AI agents against workflows and drive forward to make a big, big difference. But there’s opportunity even now, and there’s a learning opportunity.
Using AI for More Strategic Decision-Making
BILL YATES: Have you seen some companies that you feel like, okay, they’re doing well with this. They’re really using AI to enable their project managers to be more strategic with their decision-making. Have you seen some doing that?
PETER TAYLOR: Okay, so this is an interesting one. I’m seeing two types of companies right now. The companies that seem to be going quiet, I believe they’re doing stuff in the background. They’re getting it racked. They’re getting it ready. And I’ve seen companies who are making a lot of noise about things and not necessarily actually achieving the benefits. There was, I can’t remember what it was. There was a survey came out, it’s a long ago report that talked about the fact that there is perhaps more noise than there is actually value at this point in time as people grapple with it.
Now, sadly, I wrote another piece for LinkedIn not so long ago. I talked about effectively the kind of wave of assumption that’s happening out there. And we’re seeing it. We’re seeing companies around the world letting people go. You know, 10% in an organization is not unusual these days. And what you’re seeing is this chain of CEOs and heads of businesses going, well, if they can save 10% of their people, then we can save 10% of the people. And why can’t we save 20%?
But it’s actually being built on an assumptive wave of what AI will bring. Now, I believe that assumptive wave will deliver. But I think there’s going to be a short-term gap in what is actually delivered.
So, at this point in time, I haven’t personally seen an organization that is really bringing this to the fore thoroughly across the whole of the project lifecycle. But I know there are some of the big organizations that are working rapidly behind the scenes, and it will come. So, I have no doubt it’ll happen. But I think it’s very messy out there at the moment. And that’s not unusual with this kind of leading edge, bleeding edge technology type thing. It tends to go that way.
Productivity Gains vs. People Decisions
BILL YATES: Mm-hmm, that’s so true. And just anecdotally, those are the kinds of stories that I’m hearing, too. Particularly, you know, my background prior to working in project management training was software and IT. So, for, you know, to think of the great improvements in terms of coding and building test cases and all that AI can do for you now, whether you’re coding in Python or whatever the language is, you’re like you have superpowers as a software designer because of the AI tools that are there at your fingertips.
And, you know, it’s natural for those managers of those designers and then on up the chain to the C-suite to say, oh, well, do I really need three of these software designers? Maybe I just need one. You know, as long as they’re using these AI tools and their efficiency is going up so well, yeah, maybe I can cut back on staff.
It’s like when a train starts moving; right? It’s to get that thing going right and being efficient and turning down the track, it’s jerky at first. There’s maybe some bad decisions that are made early on regarding staffing or approaches or strategy that a company will take. So, I’m hearing some of those stories anecdotally that, yeah, these are super powerful tools. They can make me so much more efficient and save a lot of time for me as a grassroots designer or software coder.
But I’m having to teach management that this is not a silver bullet. This is a powerful tool, yes, but we need to step into it slowly and not make drastic decisions in terms of how many staff it takes to get a project done.
PETER TAYLOR: Yes. I mean, you’re, you know, it’s good points. But there are, you know, there are parts in the project management world that I think a massive benefit can come. I mean, I’ve struggled. I’ve worked in, you know, many companies over the years, and but there’s always been, you know, the whole lessons learned and sharing knowledge and wisdom from the project.
You know, my previous company, hundreds of projects were going on every year. And trying to farm the intelligence from that was almost impossible, particularly when, you know, they’ve been operated in different languages, for example. But if AI can mine that for you, and you’re starting a new project, you put the profile in, it will go. You know, it doesn’t have this issue of time; or, you know, it’s got to have the data, absolutely. It’s got to have access to it. But it doesn’t really get busy, does it? I mean…
BILL YATES: Right. Right. Right.
PETER TAYLOR: If we think about it, these monster farms around the world, you know, drawing, taking all this energy and stuff. But the reality is, and we’ve all, you know, most of us, I can imagine, on the podcast have used ChatGPT or Claude or something like that, you know, you get responses back in milliseconds. It’s unbelievable what it can do. So, you know, harnessing that power is going to be huge.
BILL YATES: Yeah, I agree. Some of the checkpoints that I’m hearing or flags that are raised are more about validation and confirmation and, you know, okay, yeah, I can code so much faster. I can design, or I can do this element of my job so much faster. Now I find myself spending more time checking the results of the AI that I’m using to make sure that things are valid and that we can move forward with them. And so, I think that comes into play.
More Projects, Fewer Managers
One of the things I wanted to ask you about, Peter, was, okay, as a project manager, if I’m freeing up my time now, perhaps in the future maybe I’m managing more projects at the same time. What does my typical week look like, do you think? You know, as compared to now?
PETER TAYLOR: If you had a typical week, it would be a very boring profession.
BILL YATES: Right.
PETER TAYLOR: That’s part of the attraction of project management.
BILL YATES: Right, yeah, it’s an oxymoron to say “typical week for a project manager.” But let’s use it anyway.
PETER TAYLOR: Yeah. Well, look. I think there’s a moral question or not that sits behind this. I don’t know. What I first wrote about in “AI and the Project Manager,” I described a world where AI would alleviate the pressure on project managers and give project managers a lot more time to work with people, to engage with people, to do the bit I felt has disappeared a lot over the years because we’re all so busy.
Maybe I wasn’t cynical enough, but the reality is organizations that have project managers are going to expect them to run more projects. They are not going to go, “Fantastic, you can now do your job in 20 hours, take it easy.” Or, you know, have another lunch or another call with the customer. Well, in reality, that isn’t going to happen. They’re going to go, oh, fantastic. So instead of doing four projects, you can do 10. Fantastic.
BILL YATES: Yes.
WENDY GROUNDS: They are.
PETER TAYLOR: Now, what’s it going to be? I’m now looking a little ahead here, but I think the world will be that these projects will be ongoing. They will be in different stages. They will be tracked, and they’ll be monitored by AI. AI will be running future state analysis. You know, what’s going on, what could go on. Now, here’s one of the big, big benefits I feel is we’ve always struggled with portfolio management across an organization. AI won’t struggle with that because it’s going to know every project that’s going on and the potential interdependencies, interconnections, you know, the impact from each individual project.
So, your typical day, I think, is going to, for a project manager in this world, is going to be what pops up on my screen that says I need to go and deal with this. And this, I think, is an interesting one, because what I’ve liked in the past, I think what a lot of project managers liked in the past is this little bit of unknown of actually controlling and managing our world as we oversee projects. You know, are people going to accept this in a world where actually your job is to just orchestrate projects? It’s going to be, hey, here’s your workflow. Bung, up it comes on the screen; you know?
I’m reminded, and I love telling this story, I’m reminded, in my early days, I worked in business intelligence software. And I went to go and see a company in the UK. I saw the board of directors. There was a managing director. And the idea of obviously business intelligence is to track what’s going on and give you a kind of, you know, the typical rag, the statement of certain key performance indicators. And I said to this guy, the managing director, I said, “What is it you want?” He says, “I want to come in in the morning, and I want to look at my screen. And if my screen is green, I want to go and play golf.”
I said okay. And we all laughed. I said, “What if it’s red?” And he goes, “I want to know whose fault it is so I can shout at them before I go and play golf.” So, he was joking. But the point about it is, I think in this new world, I kind of envisage that, you know, you’ll be looking at this port from the dashboard as a project story responsible for them. How are they tracking? Where is the possible problems?
I mean, hopefully it won’t be actual problems because the AI as your partner will be forecast, identified. But you need to act on this now. You need to look at this one now. You need to intervene now.
Now is the time to, you know, maybe have a phone call with the client or the senior sponsor. Now is the time to go and talk to your team. It’s going to be an orchestrated workflow that you’re going to respond to. Now, that future may not excite as many people, perhaps. But from an efficiency point of view, I think it is the reality.
From Managing Tasks to Orchestrating Outcomes
WENDY GROUNDS: Is this what you mean when you say that AI supports not just the mechanics, but part of the art of project management? Is that what you’re implying here?
PETER TAYLOR: Well, I think, you know, the art of project management has been there because I was an accidental project manager. I was one of that generation. And, you know, I was doing projects before I knew they were even called “projects.” And I certainly did it long before I was called a project manager; long, long before I was ever sent for a training course to learn how to be a project manager.
But I was moderately successful because of the art side of things, not the mechanics. I was competent with people. I was quite detailed, and I was quite structured in the way I work. And I think that’s where that came from. But I think, if you think about any job, you break it down. I think even if you’re an artist, there are certain parts of the job, if you call it a job for artists, but it’s part of the job is actually what can be broken down into tasks.
It may be that they, you know, they’ve got to go to the studio. They’ve got to stretch a canvas. Even though the heart of it is utterly creative and can – can only be delivered by humans if you argue that’s what art is. Now, obviously, AI can generate stuff. But is it truly creative? We don’t know yet.
But I think the point is that actually even within the art of project management, you can break some of that work down, and it is about I need to talk to so-and-so. I need to step up. I need to set up a meeting. And I need to engage. I need to say thank you. All of that. And I think AI can actually help orchestrate a whole chunk of that. I’m not saying it will take all of the human part of it away, but I think it can certainly guide us through that.
Who Thrives and Who Gets Left Behind?
WENDY GROUNDS: So, if the feature project manager is more of an orchestrator of these AI agents, rather than a manager of people, what happens to people who don’t have that strategic or those leadership skills to make that leap?
PETER TAYLOR: It’s going to be a tough world. It’s going to be a tough world. Reality is. I mean, you know, the simple math says that if AI, if the AI-empowered project world says that we don’t need 10 project managers, we need two orchestrators.
BILL YATES: Right.
WENDY GROUNDS: Mm-hmm.
PETER TAYLOR: It’s going to be the people who can adapt to this new world or have prepared. And that’s something I tell project managers at events all the time is get involved in this. You know, this is that group of people like, you know, get active, get involved, start experimenting, have an appetite, show you’re willing to move with the times because otherwise you’re going to be left behind. That’s a tough world. And it’s not just project managers. We know it’s a whole bunch of skills across the world. People are going to be left behind.
And something else will come. I’m not saying that we’re going to see a massive degradation in the volume of the workforce around the world. It seems every time you have something like this; we shift, we create something else. I don’t know what that is. So, I said I don’t have a crystal ball. But if you’re a project manager, then you need to be a project manager that knows and is learning AI as fast as you possibly can. And it’s tough. You know, it’s moving at such a speed.
But the point about it is you need to be seen to be the one that’s willing to – I refer in my presentations about, you know, the “digital dance.” You need to be – the one that’s in England is “Strictly Come Dancing.” I think it’s “Dancing With the Stars” for you guys, whatever. It’s that. You get a professional, and you get the amateur. And in this world, AI is the professional; and you, the project manager, are the amateur. You need to learn and elevate it. And eventually there will be a smaller group, but that where people elevate and become amazing digital dance partners in this world. But not everybody’s going to make it. I mean, that’s a tough message; but it’s the honest truth, I believe.
Becoming Guardians of Outcomes
BILL YATES: Peter, another turn of phrase that you use that I really like is “guardians of outcomes.” So, project managers will be guardians of outcomes. I like that. Would you tease that out a bit further for our listeners? What do you mean by that?
PETER TAYLOR: Yeah, I mean, I think generally we see a lot of it now. We talk about the fact it’s not just about project delivery. It’s actually outcome-centric deliveries; you know? So, my own PMO, my last PMO, we broke the PM and the O down into the P stood for Projects, which is the overall project community. The M stood for Methods or the framework we used. And the O was Outcomes.
It was the fact that we have a group of my people focused on, has this delivered the benefit we expected? And, if not, what are we going to do about it? So, we are absolutely in the outcome-centric world. And I think when you look at this AI empowered outcome-centric world, right, it’s getting complicated, I know. But, you know, that’s the world we’re going to.
Then I think the guardians of outcomes are going to be a group of people, the orchestrators, if you like, who will have a mindset that defines success in an outcome-centric world. So, they are going to look at key things. They’re going to look at judgment, for example. You know, there has to be some judgment that goes on in certain projects about the outcomes, the moralistic standpoint, whatever. Your projects are still going to be fundamentally about people because you’re trying to bring back change of some form. So, you’ve got to have that mentality of humanity, which is, yeah, it requires certain judgment. There’s going to be some conflict resolution, absolutely.
I know, you know, I said earlier on about the guy who said, let’s take the people out of the equation. Well, that isn’t going to happen completely. I think it will resolve a whole chunk, but there’ll still be. And there still will be conflict, absolutely. And I think also the kind of navigation of ambiguity is another one. These are very soft, difficult to define things, but there are things that I can’t see AI doing for a long, long time or even not sure I ever will do it. It may be able to replicate something that looks like that. But I think those are the kind of things I would say, you know, when I talk about the guardians of the outcome is things like judgment, conflict resolution, ambiguity, navigation, that kind of stuff, things like that.
The Risks of Letting AI Take the Wheel
WENDY GROUNDS: So, what’s some of the risks of handing over so much control to AI? What are the things we need to be careful of?
PETER TAYLOR: Well, not knowing what it’s doing, really. I mean, it’s quite interesting. Even I play around with ChatGPT, et cetera. And there’s some great things. It recognizes my different personas. It recognizes – I can talk to it as a head of a PMO. I can talk to it as the lazy project manager. Or I could talk with it as just, you know, normal Peter, whatever.
But it’s interesting that sometimes it goes away, and it comes back with something. And you, “Well, justify it.” You’ve got to challenge, even in playing around with some simple things that I do with it at the moment is, okay, how did you come up with that? What is your – what are your reference points? What is your actual process of working to that conclusion? I need you to go and prove to me, almost.
And I think that’s something that a lot of people don’t do at the moment. They treat it like Google, and therefore that’s the answer. That’s great. And it’s not always right. And it has bias. Absolutely. So, I think the idea here is the fact that you can take the output from AI as long as you know the calculations or the algorithmic work it’s doing or where it’s getting the data and how accurate it is. You’ve got to know. It can’t be black box. And I think that’s a risk for future young project managers. They come into a world that is going to be AI driven and powered, et cetera. And they’re going to just take blindly anything that comes out of this.
Now, hopefully there’s going to be some senior project managers, orchestrators there that give advice and guidance and help them. But, you know, it’s, I mean, I use Waze a lot in my car, for example, and I navigate. But there are certain times I, you know what? I know you’re saving me a minute, but I know that road’s barriers and slows down. It will get me there a minute early, but actually it’s a difficult road to drive or whatever. Whereas this one I know.
So sometimes you just need to have that human decision, I think, involved. They talk about the human in the loop a lot, but I think that’s a bit of a misnomer. It’s the sense the human has to be in charge. Now back to your question, Wendy, was about the human has to be in charge. You know, we can’t just let this go with no human intervention at all.
BILL YATES: Yeah. And I see it as I think about some of the consultants that I used on past projects. And if I asked the consultant to go do research on something that was going to be, you know, it was going to help drive a significant decision, and they bring back results to me, and a recommendation, I’m not going to blindly pass that on to the sponsor or my boss. You know, I’m going to look at it first myself, kick the tires a bit, sniff it, run some tests on it, do a little background checking myself.
And certainly, why would we not do the same thing with data that we get from AI? The more important the decision, the more at stake, then the greater the reason for me to fact-check it, to double-check it, to look behind, see what assumptions were made, and test it and make sure it’s going to be valid.
PETER TAYLOR: I represent myself as “the lazy project manager,” and I talk about lazy productivity. But, you know, we’ve seen some examples, some horrific examples where people have been very lazy with this. I mean, there was one I was looking at the other day, which was a white paper that was put in by someone. And clearly, I could tell it was AI anyway. But yeah, halfway down it, it had a thing of – it had ChatGPT saying, I can also insert a table here, if you say which. And they were so lazy they hadn’t even read it through properly.
BILL YATES: They hadn’t even read it, yup.
WENDY GROUNDS: Wow.
PETER TAYLOR: That’s terrible. So, yeah, not to be encouraged at all.
Will AI Lead to Upskilling or Job Cuts?
WENDY GROUNDS: I want you to look into your invisible crystal ball. Do you think that organizations are going to say, well, we’re going to upskill our people now? Or are we just going to reduce our headcount if AI is doing so much?
PETER TAYLOR: I think there’s going to be a shift of roles. I think, you know, organizations that oversee project-based activity, they have a responsibility. I feel like most organizations invest in a PMO these days if they have a big project-based activity. And I think organizations are going to realize that actually they need new skills in this. And let’s say they reduce the project managers and increase, well, create the project orchestrator’s role. I think there are other roles, as well. You might say, you know, someone has to be looking at the AI approach that people do. It’s a kind of a new methodology. So, someone’s going to have to be looking at that. There has to be education for people, I think, as well around how are they going to use AI?
When should they – and about the challenging we just talked about? You know, how do they engage, and what do they do when there’s an issue or question, et cetera, around the output, et cetera? I think there’s going to be architects in there somehow. There’s going to be some kind of AI architecture within organizations and how they put their projects and programs together in a portfolio totally. How do they now go about creating the old, good old traditional business case for projects? That’s going to change, as well. So how do we go about that?
You know, I think also it’s going to be interesting because whilst humans may struggle to talk to an MD or a CEO, et cetera, or a CFO, and go, I’m not sure we have the resources to do this, AI isn’t going to care about that. You know, it has no subjectivity whatsoever. It’s going to go, no, you know, computer says no. This is going to be the answer. You can put that in the front end, but this is going to have this consequence, and this isn’t going to work. So, I think there’s a whole new role. And I tried to explore some of them in the book. But it’s, you know, its future stakes, so it’s quite difficult.
But I think there are certain elements there where we need to actually have people involved and take that responsibility. For example, I’ve seen organization now, you know, talking about chief AI officers appearing in organizations, for example. Evolution of a role. I think it’s brand new, really. It’s giving someone a title, but actually consolidating certain roles. But why not? I mean, I think those things are going to come. There’s going to be opportunities, absolutely.
How Project Managers Can Stay Relevant
BILL YATES: Okay. So, for our project managers that are listening today, what should they start doing right now to make sure they stay relevant and thrive in this future?
PETER TAYLOR: Well, don’t hide your head in the sand. Maybe if you’re like 12 months away from retirement, you can do what you like. Maybe.
BILL YATES: Right.
PETER TAYLOR: There’s people that say that. But actually, don’t bury your head. It’s coming. Don’t be in denial. It’s coming. Start exploring. Start experimenting. Start talking to other people in your organization. Start talking to your PMO. Start talking to your chief technology officers or anybody, what’s going on with AI in your organization? How can you find out more?
Secondly, how can you be involved as well? And I think that’s a very self-protective state, really. I mean, if you’re seen to be active and engaged, it’s a good thing for the future. I think the other thing is, go outside. I mean, get, you know, I always encourage people to go outside and look at presentations, go to events, read books, podcasts, whatever it may be. There’s a lot.
I said earlier on when I wrote the book four years ago that I was worried that nobody was talking about it. I was speaking at a conference not so long ago, and the request from the organizers was every single speaker, could you make it relevant to AI? Now, that was difficult. I was lucky. I was the opening keynote, so I could do whatever I want. But the further you got down the day, I saw these people going off and reworking their presentation because otherwise it becomes highly repetitive.
But there’s a lot now, a lot out there. There’s organizations that offer AI training. There’s some good stuff out there. Get active, get involved, get yourself up to speed as best you can. And volunteer. If you’ve got something going on at work that’s AI focused, volunteer.
Drawing the Ethical Line for AI Decisions
WENDY GROUNDS: Where do you think that we should draw the line ethically as AI is able to make more and more decisions, project-based decisions? Where should we say nope, that that needs to be done by a human?
PETER TAYLOR: The ethical line is a really difficult one. I think, you know, if it has any human impact, the output, then I think there has to be an ethical line. Absolutely. And going back to new roles in the future that are coming, AI ethics is another one. There’s another role that I think is going to become very important. It’s almost like a reference point. It’s one of the things I talk about that’s a kind of a role in the future of the PMO.
I think if there’s a question, can you go and talk to someone about this? So, I think the line is that. Does it have an impact on humans? So, I don’t mean an impact of it makes people, yeah, have to fill in a report or something, or makes people to have to attend the meeting. Not that. I’m talking about the fact, does the output, the outcomes of what’s going on here impact people on a day-to-day basis? If it does, there is an ethical line and a protection point, I believe, that should be built in.
Connect with Peter
WENDY GROUNDS: I mentioned in the beginning that you have a podcast. Why don’t you tell our audience about your podcast and just some of the work that you do so that they can connect with you?
PETER TAYLOR: Yeah, my podcast is absolutely nothing to do with project management, actually, so there. So, look, here’s the thing. I’m towards the end of my career. People can’t see me; but, you know, I’m quite old, really. But still, I am not retired. That’s the important thing. Still available for presentations, keynotes, et cetera.
But a couple of my friends, they’ve started the process of beginning retirement. And so, I set up this podcast with my old boss, actually, who has retired, and it’s Walking Into Retirement. We do a series of walks around the UK. And we interview each other, we talk to each other, and we have guests, as well. And it is to explore this interesting state because in our sort of grandparents’ day, I mean, retirement was fairly simple. 65, you’re retired. And that was it. It was a very binary event.
It’s not anymore. People start the retirement planning years ahead. Some people don’t retire, some people part time, some people go back to work. There’s a whole lot. So yeah, walking into retirement. And we get to have a good chat and talk about all the wonderful things that could happen or impact you during that kind of retirement process.
BILL YATES: That’s fantastic. Yeah, yeah.
PETER TAYLOR: Yeah, WalkingIntoRetirement.com, you can find it. It’s on all the usual platforms.
WENDY GROUNDS: And if, on the side of project management,
if folk want to connect with you, is that at TheLazyProjectManager.com?
PETER TAYLOR: Yeah, https://thelazyprojectmanager.com/is my primary one. Or LinkedIn. I’m pretty active on LinkedIn, as you know. So yeah, reach out to me, connect to me, follow me, whatever. Let’s talk more about AI and project management.
BILL YATES: Well, Peter, thank you for raising the alert about AI and the impact it’s going to have on project managers. I think you’ve been successful. People are definitely aware and embracing the future and seeing, okay, what are the changes that I need to make now? What do I need to learn now so that I can be relevant in the future? And so, thank you for your contribution to that. And thanks for your time today. We really appreciate it.
PETER TAYLOR: No, it’s my pleasure.
Closing
WENDY GROUNDS: Thank you for joining us on Manage This. You can visit us at Velociteach.com, where you can subscribe to this podcast and see a complete transcript of the show. To claim your free PDUs, go to Velociteach.com. Choose Manage This Podcast from the top of the page. Click the button that says Claim PDUs and follow through the steps.
Until next time, stay curious, stay inspired, and keep tuning in to Manage This.
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