The podcast for project managers by project managers. Is Scope Creep derailing your project? A lack of control can lead to projects spiraling out of scope. Join us as Shannon Keenan shares strategies to keep your team focused, avoid delays, and deliver successful outcomes. Learn how to manage scope effectively and prevent projects from spiraling out of control.
Table of Contents
03:11 … Artemis Factor
04:45 … What is Scope Creep?
07:33 … Change Request vs. Scope Creep
10:14 … The Problem with Scope Creep
12:27 … Scope Change Requests
13:38 … Is All Scope Creep Bad?
17:22 … Signs of Scope Creep Occurring
19:23 … Project Health Checks
22:25 … The Planning Phase
25:08 … Importance of Documentation
26:11 … Ren Love ‘Projects of the Past’
28:37 … Push Back on Scope Creep
30:43 … Be the Trust Agent
32:45 … Finding the Balance: Innovation vs. Scope
36:43 … Useful Tools for Managing Scope Creep
40:37 … Keeping a Decision Log
42:49 … Connect with Shannon
43:49 … Closing
SHANNON KEENAN: What we do to avoid those pitfalls are project health checks. We’ll do monthly health checks. It depends on how big the project is or how long it’s going to run. And you really want to kind of just do a quick check, it’s good as a PM you’re looking forward, but just kind of take a quick glance back; right? What was your original charter? Or what was your objective? What was your timeline? What were the benefits? Are these additional requirements causing any kind of pain to the project or negatively impacting any of those original requirements, objectives that were set up at the beginning of the project?
WENDY GROUNDS: Welcome to Manage This, the podcast by project managers for project managers. I’m Wendy Grounds, and in the studio with me is Bill Yates. We want to take a moment to say thank you to our listeners who reach out to us. If you leave comments on our website or on social media, we love hearing from you. We appreciate your positive ratings on Apple podcasts or whichever podcast listening app you use. Please do get in touch, leave us a comment at Velociteach.com or on social media, and let us know what you like to hear more of, as well. We like to make our episodes something that you’d want to hear more about. So, if you have some suggestions of project managers who are doing amazing projects or topics that would be very helpful to you in your career, please let us know.
BILL YATES: Got a team needing top-notch training? Velociteach specializes in private group training, both on-site and virtual. Share your training goals with us, and we’ll craft the perfect plan for your team. Whether it’s exam prep, maintaining certification, or mastering the latest project management best practices, our live classes and expert instructors will fast-track your organization to success. Explore our private group training offerings at Velociteach.com today.
WENDY GROUNDS: Today we’re exploring the crucial topic of scope creep…
BILL YATES: Scope creep.
WENDY GROUNDS: …in project management. It can be that silent killer that’ll derail even the most well-planned projects. We’re joined by Shannon Keenan. She is the co-founder and partner at Artemis Factor, and she brings over 25 years of project management expertise in the pharmaceutical industry. Shannon has expertly guided both large and small teams through comprehensive strategies across the entire pharma value chain, from R&D and clinical trials to regulatory affairs and commercial operations. Her extensive experience makes her the perfect guest to shed light on this pervasive issue.
BILL YATES: And we had students and listeners reach out to us, and they had specific questions about scope creep. I can’t wait to put those in front of Shannon.
WENDY GROUNDS: Yes. So, let’s get started. Hi, Shannon. Welcome to Manage This. Thank you so much for being our guest.
SHANNON KEENAN: Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be here and excited to talk a little bit about scope creep.
Artemis Factor
WENDY GROUNDS: It’s a topic that we haven’t really talked much about before so I think it’s important that we do address it. But I wanted to find out a little bit about you and about the work you do. So why don’t you just tell us about what you do at Artemis Factor.
SHANNON KEENAN: Yes, yes. So just a little bit about Artemis Factor. I, with my two partners, co-founded Artemis Factor around six years ago. The three of us are women that grew up in pharma. An interesting mix, we grew up in pharma and had a passion for, we kind of say, getting things done. So, project management, that really is what kind of, we looked back and said what excited us at the end of the day, and it was kind of making that impact on a large regulated organization. So, at Artemis, our primary focus is in pharma and in biotech. 95% of our team have grown up in pharma; and we work within those groups, pharma and biotech, to do those large transformational projects.
On top of that, my role at Artemis, we kind of do a divide and conquer, as I’m sure you understand, with like small businesses. I head up a lot of the finances, so CFO, do the financial reporting, the invoicing payroll, budget it, which is exciting because it’s a new area for me. But I think it also shows my kind of project management, liking things in order, liking to have data. So, you know, in that scientific background I was drawn to that piece of the work.
What is Scope Creep?
BILL YATES: Wendy, I’m so excited that we have somebody that we can finally shine a light on scope creep.
WENDY GROUNDS: Yeah. We’ve needed to. We’ve needed to talk about this. We’re always trying to find things that we think project managers would want to have questions answered. We’ve already mentioned we have a few questions from our listeners which we’re excited to share with you today. But Shannon, before we head there, before we even go into the details of scope creep, can you give us a definition of exactly what is scope creep?
SHANNON KEENAN: That’s a good question, Wendy, thinking about, as we know, with projects; right? And we often joke when people say, “Oh, I need help. There’s a problem or something innovative I want to do.” And I kind of joke with our leadership team that, “Oh, it’ll be easy. It’s only going to be a couple months.” If it were easy, they would have done it themselves. Right? Like that’s the reality. So, a lot of time, as we know, when you have this problem, it’s almost that tip of the iceberg. You know a little bit about the problem, and you try to do a good job at the beginning to plan, to document, to make sure that the objective and benefits and timelines are all communicated out well.
And we’d all love for that, I guess we could call “old-school waterfall” approach, you know exactly what you want and where you’re going, but the reality is that there’s sometimes new requirements that are needed. There’s new regulatory, and the environment I work is very regulated. So, there could be new regulations that come. There could be new technologies. And that’s where you kind of have that scope creep.
And there are different types of scope creep; right? There’s your what we call the undocumented, unplanned scope creep, where it’s like you’re hearing as a project manager from stakeholders and you’re just adding, piling on. And I think a lot of time as a project manager, we like to people-please so we want to make sure, “Yes, I can do it. Yeah, right. And I see the hand there. I can do that. I want to help.” You’re a helper. You want to facilitate, and you add things on. So that’s kind of your uncontrolled scope creep.
Then there’s also a change-controlled scope creep because, as we said, the reality is you’re never going to have that perfect project where you know today, today in July, and you’re delivering something in January, where things might not change. And through that kind of change-controlled scope creep, you’re building upfront the kind of expectation and the process to handle those new changes that come. And it could be that through documentation, one in, one out, you know, how do you understand the impact and make sure that you raise that awareness to the full team and stakeholders.
Change Request vs. Scope Creep
BILL YATES: One of the student questions that we had, okay, when I hear scope creep, I have a hard time telling what’s the difference in a legitimate change request that involves a scope, and scope creep. I just think that’s a great question. I think it’s something that you have to get more comfortable with as you kind of evolve or grow as a project manager. But just from the basis of that question, how can you tell the difference between scope creep and just a scope change request?
SHANNON KEENAN: Yeah, that’s a really good question. And I think even an experienced PM, sometimes you have to pause; right? And I always think it’s one of those things you’re either going to pay today by taking the time to plan and set up project properly, or you’re really going to double-pay down the road. I think it goes back to making sure you have whatever the team agrees to; right? What’s the objective of the project? What’s the benefit? What are those requirements? And really doing that mapping of requirements to benefit so that you have an understanding of, you know, those requirements. This is why you’re doing the project because you’re going to get these benefits after the project is delivered.
And what will happen, I think, to the question there around scope creep versus the change control, when you do not have a process in place upfront to address. And you know as project managers you always get the pressure; right? A lot of times I’ve had projects where you say, “Okay, this is going to take six months, and it’s going to be 300,000 pounds or dollars.” I would love to see those things get approved in that discussion. And I know that it’s going to cost this amount, 300K. It’s going to take six months. And I know these are the benefits you’re going to get. The reality is there’s the pressure. That sounds good, Shannon. I need it done faster. I need it done cheaper. And I need it done with less resources.
And then you take your pen, you take your pencil or, you know, your Microsoft Project or Asana, whatever tool you’re going to use, and you trim down the best you can. Then you come back, “All right, it’s going to be 250 and five months.” But I want to say, “Listen, we need to build change control into this process.” Because if these other requirements that you’re saying are nice to have, but not must to have, in two months down the road because of regulations come up or because of additional benefit now you know, I need to know what the process is to manage that and set the expectations up correctly. Is it going to now take six months, or are we going to have to remove a requirement? It’s really around having that process, that control, and that communication upfront.
The Problem with Scope Creep
WENDY GROUNDS: Yeah, yeah, very true. I’m sure this is something you’ve seen played out in Big Pharma, but why is scope creep so detrimental to projects?
SHANNON KEENAN: Yeah, you know, scope creep is detrimental to projects because there’s numerous factors. I think, you know, you can look at it from budget. We know there’s not unlimited budget, so budget can become an issue. And when we say budget, putting, you know, additional resources to get something done. That impacts your timeline. So now you have impact to timeline. You have impact to the team’s morale. If you just keep on dumping more and more, and now the expectation is this is what had to be done, and now it’s a high-profile project, and now we’re asking you to do more.
And also, quality. If you think about, especially the industry that I support in pharma and biotech, you know, where you may be impacting patients, patient safety, quality is something that you never want to impact or never want to potentially impact. And you know, you can get stuck in that vicious cycle where now you’re, as I said, stressing your resources, which is going to impact your quality.
BILL YATES: That’s so true. I’m really glad you brought that piece up. I haven’t really thought about that. It’s easy to think about, you know, your kind of your primary constraints. Think of the, you know, the scope schedule, cost, the quality. But you’re right. I’ve been a part of projects before where scope creep starts to raise its head, and it impacts team morale. You’re absolutely right. Because then the team is looking to the leader to see, does the leader, first of all, do they have a system in place like you talked about?
And if they do, are they letting the customer, you know, run around that or not use that process? If so, they’re not in control, and now my scope’s getting out of control. Now it’s me paying for it as a team member because I’m having to work weekends or longer hours, or maybe I’m just rushing through the work. I’m not doing the quality of work that I wanted to do. So yeah, it really impacts team morale, yeah. Scope creep is bad, yes.
SHANNON KEENAN: It is. It can be. Let’s just say it can be.
Scope Change Requests
BILL YATES: Yeah, it can be. That’s another thing, and I’ve always said this when I’m speaking with other project managers. When we differentiate between scope creep and change requests, one of the things that I think is important to remember is a scope change request is a healthy thing. You know, it shows – I actually get nervous. I’ll tell project managers. I get nervous if I’m leading a project and I don’t have scope change requests because I know I’m not perfect. I know we haven’t gathered all the right requirements. So, if it’s like radio silence from the customer in terms of scope change requests, I’m starting to get nervous that they’re not interested in this project. Maybe they’re going to cut the project; you know?
SHANNON KEENAN: I agree. I agree; right? It is kind of that allowing to have that process in place, that change control. It allows you to have that healthy discussion and understanding what the value of this project’s going to bring. And I hear you. If I hear nothing, I’m like, they’re not interested. Again, I think to your point it’s the budget, it’s the timeline, but even the morale. Nobody wants to work on something that’s not valued, that you’re not going to see being used once it’s delivered.
Is All Scope Creep Bad?
WENDY GROUNDS: So, I want to ask you one of the questions that we did get from a Velociteach student. And the question was, is all scope creep bad? You know, you guys talked about that just a few seconds ago. They said, if I’m going above and beyond, and I’m adding extra functionality, is that scope creep? Isn’t that a good thing? What would you say to that?
SHANNON KEENAN: Yeah, I think that’s a great question. I think as a project manager a little bit scope creep can stress you out because we try to stay, you’re focused, you have your timeline. You’re moving ahead on your milestones. But I think to that point, all scope creep is not bad if it is in that controlled agreed process. Because what you know today will be different than what data and information you have next month, you know, one month, two months, three months out. So, there is opportunity.
What we’ve seen with that controlled change request, scope creep is innovation. Right? And what we’ve seen work best, and it depends on the kind of your environment, is that agile approach where it’s a little waterfall, a little agile. So, as you are working on the project, and you’re keeping your stakeholders involved, they’re giving feedback. We’ve all seen that cartoon where you have the one person describe their business requirements, and it’s like a tree swing. And then what actually gets delivered is not that.
So, as you go through that path of delivering the project, and having those check-ins with your stakeholders, you as a PM or your team can raise, you know, sometimes scope creep doesn’t always come from the business; right? It could be from the actual team that says, I know that this is what the business said that they want. And again, the business usually knows. But now that we’ve delivered a little bit, maybe this would be more efficient. Maybe this would help them with their problem that they have.
So, I think that it can be okay. What you want to do is make sure that you document it, you reflect on what the original project, the requirements and the benefits are, and communicate, go through that process. Do we agree from the stakeholders that this is the right thing to do? If it is, understand what the impact is going to be. Is there impact on resource, timeline, budget? Do you have to reduce the scope to add something in?
BILL YATES: Yeah, that’s good. Just to piggyback on that, one other piece of advice that I’ll share sometimes is, to this question “Is all scope creep bad?” No, there are times when you do see the opportunity to kind of go that extra mile. Or your team may discover a better way to do something; but you’re like, wow, I think this is going to be better, but it’s going to take me 10 extra hours to do this. Then I look for another sponsor. So, I’m saying, okay, my customer, yeah, they’ve asked this innocently.
Well, it turns out there’s something really good here. We should do it, but it’s not in the original scope. I’m not going to ask the customer to pay for that extra 10 hours. I’m going to go talk to my manager about it and say, I think this is going to benefit us for future versions of the product or future implementations that we do. So, I’m kind of finding a sponsor for that extra piece of scope. So, trying to turn that potentially bad scope creep into something good, you know, long-term.
SHANNON KEENAN: Yeah, I love that. You’ve probably heard, too, this like enterprise thinking; right? Not just thinking about what’s my role to kind of pull your head up. And I love that idea of finding another sponsor. Might not be for this particular project. It will give benefit, but you can see a larger benefit across whether it’s to the client you’re delivering, whether it’s to your team, you know, what that additional value could be.
Signs of Scope Creep Occurring
WENDY GROUNDS: Shannon, so what are some common signs that scope creep is starting to occur? If you’re working on a project and you see that things are starting to head south, what are some of the things, the pitfalls to watch out for?
SHANNON KEENAN: So, I think that some of the pitfalls are you might be getting feedback; right? You may be getting feedback from the actual team. And whether that’s your internal team or external team on, that looks good. But what about if we do this; right? You also may start hearing from individuals versus where I’ve seen, as opposed to some people don’t like to bring it up in the larger team meeting? They’re trying to get you on the side. We’ve all seen that – the meeting after the meeting. I really try to avoid those. It was interesting, another podcast where they don’t even give feedback one-on-one. This one leader has actually decided not to do any one-on-ones. They share the feedback. It’s a smaller company or under 50, but feed it collectively because they feel like everyone should be able to learn.
So, I think some of those pitfalls, and we’ve all had it when you have contentious meetings, or as we said, when you usually will bring a project manager either in or assign one internally, usually – it’s not a straight path. And so, when you start getting people to say, “Oh, this looks great, but what if we added this?” Or “Has anybody brought this up?” And again, you want to never be – I sometimes feel like I need a “no” button as a PM, where you don’t want to squash the innovation, but it’s almost like as a parent and as a PM, like that’s a no, that’s a no.
But as we started to try to say “and”; right? No. And if you add this, if you can really define what the benefit is or no, it’s kind of that and or but. But if you had to remove a requirement, what could it be? So, I think some of the pitfalls are, one, around kind of those meetings after the meetings, and also making sure that you tie back.
Project Health Checks
What we do to avoid those pitfalls are project health checks. We’ll do monthly health checks. It depends on how big the project is or how long it’s going to run. And you really want to kind of just do a quick check. It’s good as a PM you’re looking forward, but just kind of take a quick glance back; right? What was your original charter? What was your objective? And what was your timeline? What were the benefits? Are these additional requirements causing any kind of pain to the project or negatively impacting any of those original requirements, objectives that were set up at the beginning of the project?
BILL YATES: Mm-hmm. Shannon, those are so good. And I can visualize those side conversations, you know, the meeting after the meeting, that’s a great way to put it. Those side channels are good triggers or good signs that scope creep is potentially happening, especially – and I’ve been on both sides of this. I’ve been that bad customer before, and I’ve been the project manager who’s had to deal with the bad customer who just figures out, “Hey, there’s a team member that’ll go above and beyond. All I’ve got to do is ask.” So, you know, as a leader of the team, if I can pick up on those signs.
One of the other things that’s intriguing to me too, I’ve heard this from other team members, is they’ll get a sense that there’s scope creep going on if their team has trouble tracking their time. Like maybe they have some kind of time entry system they have to fill in day-to-day or at the end of the week, and they’re kind of struggling with – they keep putting everything in that admin pot, or they can’t be specific with it.
And then if a leader can kind of pick up on that sign and say, “Hey, you know, I see you’ve got 30 hours this week just in this admin bucket, but I know you’re working on the project because we were just talking about stuff. So, you know, what was going on?” Maybe having that deeper conversation. Yeah, those are very good things though.
SHANNON KEENAN: Yeah, and I’m sure you’ve seen it too, like additional meetings popping up; right? Because when things are unclear, so it’s like, “Okay, what is this new meeting?” Or you see the email churns, the additional meetings that are popping up that, you know, things are not clear, and they’re not clear because you’re trying to get additional scope. And we’ve even seen it, I’m not sure about you both, where our team, as you say, you’re trying to find that team member. Sometimes even our team is like, “Well, they want the gold plated.”
And we all understand, and I think it’s great working with very motivated, smart people. But sometimes, if they only need the, you know, they want the platinum; right? Maybe the silver is going to get the job done, that 80/20, and we almost say, “Is that a nice-to-have or a must-have?” Right? And so, I think it could be coming from the client and the project, the business owner. But sometimes we’ve seen it from our team where I’m like, “Listen, I know that it might not look beautiful to you, but in regards to what they need in this regulatory or timeframe, you need to be okay with that. You can’t be that perfectionist.”
The Planning Phase
WENDY GROUNDS: Can you head this off right in the beginning, right in the planning phase of your project? What are some strategies that you can employ in the planning phase to stop that risk of scope creep?
SHANNON KEENAN: I think that is so fundamental to setting up successful projects in general, but especially to kind of avoid the pitfall, the scope creep. Some teams, you know, you have again, what your charter, what your business requirements are. It’s the documentation, which sometimes might not seem as glamorous. But documentation will save you because what happens is you usually have a little nice quiet time. The team meets. You’re doing that upfront. It’s slightly stressful, but not super stressful. When you’re in the thick of the projects, we all know that is when the pressure is on.
And it’s so nice to be able to look back and say, hold up, what is our change control process? Do we have a change control board? Do we have an impact assessment that we’re going to kind of measure this new requirement? What is the impact, both positive or negative? What is the process to get it reviewed? Who is that sponsor? Who has that golden ticket to say, yup, we agree that either, A, this is going to extend the project; or, B, we’re going to agree. Everyone, hey, we’re going to remove requirement B because requirement D is more important.
So, it’s kind of setting up those communication channels, the documentation, the review and approval process that, again, you don’t know you need it. It’s almost like insurance. But when, at that point, that big thing comes up, it makes it clear, provides clarity during those times of uncertainty, that you can go back and say, “Hey, we agreed. These were the requirements. It doesn’t mean we can’t be flexible, but there is a process.”
BILL YATES: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Just that clarity and communicating upfront, setting the expectation upfront. It brings comfort, I think, not just to the team, but to the customer, too, to know that…
SHANNON KEENAN: Yes.
BILL YATES: …okay, Shannon recognizes things will change throughout the life of this project. This is a whatever, you know, one-year project. We’re not going to nail all the requirements at the beginning. Things will change, and she’s got a process for handling that. We’re going to have open conversations about it. There’ll probably be trade-offs that I’ll be a part of as the customer. That’s all very healthy. Yeah, that’s great.
SHANNON KEENAN: Yeah. I think it’s like the customer knows the expectation, and also the team. As going back to like the team knows, listen, I’ve got your back. We’re all in this together, and that we have to be flexible. And things may be added, but also we’ll manage those expectations to set the team up for success.
Importance of Documentation
WENDY GROUNDS: Talking about documentation, I’m going to put a shameless plug for Episode 180. We actually talked to Adrienne Bellehumeur, and she gave us a whole podcast on documentation and just how important it is. So, at the time we were like, huh, not sure if anybody wants to hear about documentation. But it’s really important. It’s very…
BILL YATES: If it helps with scope creep, absolutely.
WENDY GROUNDS: Yup. Yeah.
SHANNON KEENAN: See, sometimes people think it’s not. But isn’t it great when you’re like, oh, remember, because we all get so busy. Remember we said this? Yes, we did. And it’s okay, again, to change it because you have new information. But if you don’t have those documentation, those, you know, the fundamental documentations, and I’m going to have to listen to that podcast because I think that some people are like, I just want it done. And they need to understand what the impact is that, listen, it’s going to be chaotic, and you’re not going to get what you want unless we take the time upfront to document, and then throughout the process document. And then even at the end, kind of reflect back and say what do we need to change for the next project?
Ren Love ‘Projects of the Past’
REN LOVE: Ren Love here with a glimpse into Projects of the Past; where we take a look at historical projects through the modern lens.
Once again, we’re turning our attention to one of the 7 Wonders of the Ancient World: The Colossus of Rhodes.
Constructed in the 3rd Century BCE, historians believe that the Colossus served two purposes: firstly, to celebrate the victory over the Macedonians who had laid siege to the island for a year and, secondly, to pay homage to Helios – the Greek God of the Sun. In fact, many historians believe that the Colossus was a statue of the sun god himself.
In 294 BCE, the sculptor Chares of Lindos began the process of building the colossus near the Harbor. It’s possible that Chares built the statue traditionally (by casting large sections and then connecting them) or in a unique way that involved burying each completed section before building the next. Historians don’t quite agree on how it was built, but they all agree that the traditional depiction of the Colossus standing above the harbor is not possible given the technology of the time. In all reality, the Colossus was most likely built to one side of the harbor, or even further inland as part of the Acropolis of Rhodes. All told, it took around 12 years to build the Colossus which was the tallest statue in the ancient world at approx. 105 ft high. As with many other ancient projects, we have no idea of the true cost.
The colossus stood for 54 years before collapsing during an earthquake in 226 BCE. The Oracle at Delphi encouraged the citizens of Rhodes (nicknamed the Colossians) not to rebuild the Colossus – claiming that the existence of the statue had angered the sun god Helios. So, instead of rebuilding, the pieces of the Colossus lay where the fell for almost 800 years, when the final bits were melted down and sold during wars of the time.
So, was this project a success? Yes – even if it collapsed less than 60 years after being built. The Colossus of Rhodes made an impression that has lasted throughout history. As recently as 2015, a group in Greece proposed the building of a modern colossus that would be 5 times taller and would cost an estimated 283 million USD.
Thanks for joining me for this look into Projects of the Past. See ya next time.
Push Back on Scope Creep
WENDY GROUNDS: I want to pop in another student question from one of our listeners and Velociteach students. And this person asked, “How do I push back on scope creep, especially with key stakeholders?” So, let’s talk about stakeholders.
SHANNON KEENAN: Yeah, that’s tough; right? That is, you know, I think of the project managers being that facilitator, being that trusted partner. I think you do have to go back to that trust. So, building that relationship with your team, your team that’s helping you deliver the project, along with your stakeholders, that they know that you are there to be of service to them, and having that trust so that you can have those communications; right? To understand, I think, originally, as we said, that things will change. We agreed, we have this process in place. We said that there is going to be changes. And it could even be sometimes to no one’s fault, like the technology we thought was going to work, guess what, it doesn’t work. So, we’re going to have to swap it out.
The project team doesn’t want to hear that. You as a client don’t want to hear that. But the team has been working on what your next alternative is. So, I think having that trust with the team and with your sponsor, setting that up early through clear communications, through updates; right? Documenting, and how the team wants to document, whether it’s through a repository, a SharePoint, a team site. Kind of having that information readily available that’s visible really builds that trust. So, you can point that, hey, we said that this is where it was going to be. A
nd to be that partner, to not just say this sounds like it’s a scope creep. To be like, listen, I want a sanity check. This is what I’m hearing. It feels to me, you know, you as a sponsor, do you agree? And being able to have that conversation and having that sponsor that can set the expectation for the business side and for the project management team side.
Be the Trust Agent
BILL YATES: Yeah, it goes back to early on you talked about, okay, the key stakeholders, they selected these requirements for a reason, and you tie those requirements to benefits. So, it’s almost like you’re preaching back to them and reminding them, hey, these are the seven requirements that we’ve all agreed to, and we built everything around that. And these are the benefits. If we do this, it’s going to undermine that one requirement, or it could impact two of these. Is it worth that trade-off to have things change?
So yeah, it’s almost like you are that trust agent of, I listened very carefully to you early on when we agreed to the scope, so carefully that I’m going to protect it. You know, I want to protect you from yourself because I’m just like you. I want to add bright, shiny things as we go. But I want to remember, I want to go back to the requirement and the benefit that you originally really staked the claim on. Yeah, and that involves trust.
SHANNON KEENAN: Mm-hmm. And it is hard; right? Because I think going back to you want to be that facilitator, you want to be that person that’s going to get it done, but sometimes you’ve got to practice that pause. And you have to kind of, you know, work through your health checks and recite back what the original requirements and benefits and say, this is why we’re doing this, because you need additional bandwidth in your team. You need innovation in your team. You need to work quicker in your team.
And if this new requirement or scope is not going to give you that, maybe that’s for phase two; right? I’m not saying we get rid of it. And I think there is ways to give alternatives; right? Not just say no. There’s always a “no” button. Sometimes it’s a “no, but.” Either no, we take something out; no, we extend; or no, maybe let’s get this out because I feel like this initial scope can really help your team out. And let’s look at that as being phase two. So, I think it is, you know, that trusted partner giving alternatives, mirroring back what was your original scope and benefits of the project.
Finding the Balance: Innovation vs. Scope
BILL YATES: One of the questions that I’m looking forward to talking through this with you, Shannon, how do project managers balance the need for innovation and flexibility with the need to control scope? So, what advice do you have for project managers in finding that balance?
SHANNON KEENAN: Yeah, that is something that I’ve lived the waterfall, which I think to my control personality is a nice method. And then I was, you know, living through the, hey, everybody has to go agile 100%. And that works for some tech companies; right? I can see where it is. This space that I’m at, which is in the pharma, that doesn’t work well. So, what we’ve seen work well is that mix of kind of understanding upfront that what are your requirements, what are your benefits, but having that flexibility and how do you work flexible. You can use some of the tools from agile, kind of the daily stand-ups, your Kanban board. You can use some of those to move your project forward.
So, I think it is being flexible, giving alternatives, using kind of that mix of that understanding upfront that waterfall, but remaining agile to the changes that we all know come. And they could come internally from the team, but also externally from new technology, new regulations, new pressures; right? In pharma you can have a product launch that you’re moving ahead with, and maybe it doesn’t get approval from a regulator, or maybe it gets approved by FDA, but not EMA. So how do you be flexible in that?
I think, Wendy, going back to – I want to listen to that other podcast on documentation – going back, if you have things documented upfront, and it’s like document, document, document, plan, plan, plan. It’s kind of like, if you leave this podcast, you should go listen to the documentation one. And if you know where you’ve come from, it helps you to understand where you’re going.
BILL YATES: Well said, well said.
SHANNON KEENAN: And it’s not a straight line.
BILL YATES: Yeah, projects are not straight lines. And I appreciate your perspective in this so much, too, because of the industry that you’re in, the heavy regulations, and we can’t be loosey-goosey with scope change requests because they could impact something that is life or death. It could be the difference in whether we actually complete this project, or we get the funding pulled because now we’ve blown away one of the requirements that’s an absolute. Yeah, and trying to find that balance, it’s funny, I think of Andy Crowe, the founder of Velociteach, hearing him speak on this. And he’s seen both sides. He’s seen where people have not set up enough change control for scope.
You know, it’s like the Wild, Wild West. It’s like this project will never get done. The customer’s happy because we continue to produce the stuff that they want. We never say no. You know, forget about the budget, forget about the schedule. But there’s also the other side of where you clamp it down. The process is so arduous, or is just so intimidating to the customer that they’re not going to use it. They’ll either give up on it – they’ll say, okay, I just am not going to ask for a change request, even though I think it’ll really bring value in this project – or they’ll figure out a way around it. They’ll start finding team members that want to gold plate. Yeah, and both of those are bad. So, trying to find that balance is so tricky.
SHANNON KEENAN: It is. And I think having some of that with the planning, having the right sponsor in place, keeping the team updated, allowing them to say where they’ve come and what that true north is, and giving alternatives of, hey, it doesn’t mean that we, the team, we’re never going to do this. But it’s not the right time, not now. Right? And let’s keep that list of what are your future requirements, your future projects.
Useful Tools for Managing Scope Creep
WENDY GROUNDS: Shannon, we’ve talked about documentation a bit and how important that is. Are there any other tools or methodologies that you know would really help our project managers who are listening in and how they can manage through the scope of their project’s lifecycle?
SHANNON KEENAN: You know, we always try to look at Artemis like not reinventing the wheel. So why not utilize tools and methodologies that are out there? And they could be flexible. Our team at Artemis, really, we are tool agnostic. But the fact that, you know, there are tools like Asana; there’s Smartsheets; we all know Microsoft Project. So, there are tools that already have project management built in that allows transparency; right? It’s not me working off the piece of paper or that I’m putting on my personal drive.
There’s also repositories. It’s like, what’s your document management approach going to be? And that includes your ways of working. That includes tools. Okay, does everybody have Asana? Are people comfortable with it? Do you just want to be able to share out? Sometimes I know as project managers I don’t want people touching my data. We get kind of like that. But the nice thing with these tools is you can allow you access. And also, a lot of times a team, you know, your business owners, they may say, “This looks confusing to me. I just want a dashboard.”
So, the nice thing is a lot of these tools have those roll-up dashboards that you can share out with them. There’s the change management board and tools to make sure that, okay, how are you going to manage change management? Can anybody, are you allowing anybody on the team to give a new requirement? Or is this something that, listen, we need to stay focused, we have to keep it tight? Or is it a project that you want to have a more open change management? So, what is that process? Is it a review board? Are there certain criteria? Agree that, okay, we need to know what the change is, we need to understand what the impact is, what the cost is?
So, if you have something that you’re bringing new to the table, a new requirement, let me know, is there another requirement that you think this will supersede? What is the impact? What is the benefit? Don’t just say, “It’s going to help a million people.” Really give me a little understanding, something tangible. And I think even we talked a little bit about the approach. Is it waterfall? Is it agile? Or is it that blend of a hybrid approach? So, understanding that there are tools out there, there are processes out there that you should look to utilize and amend as needed.
BILL YATES: Yeah. And common sense is so helpful in this regard. I think about some of the things that I see in contracts that really spell out the details. I feel like I should do the same thing with scope change requests. Early on, let’s set expectations with the customer. “Hey, if you have a change request, it’s going to be substantial.”
So, first of all, let’s describe substantial. What does that mean? So, here’s the form we want you to fill out. And let’s play around with the form together and get something we’re all comfortable with. But then, you know, let’s take the next step, which is when you fill that out and you send it, we’re going to respond to you within, whatever, 24 hours. As a customer I don’t want to think I’m filling out some form that we’ve all agreed to. And then what? You know, so you go ahead…
SHANNON KEENAN: Right.
BILL YATES: …and talk it through all the way. And after you get our response, then we’re going to meet on it. You know, we think it’s going to be a $10,000 price tag or whatever. Let’s talk it through, and let’s explain to you how we got there and what we think. Here’s some of the ripple effects that we think it’ll cause. Do you have extra information on that, or better perspective? Just going to that next level. Once the change request hits the team, then what happens? You know, spelling that out with them, too.
Keeping a Decision Log
SHANNON KEENAN: You know, what we’ve seen too is having the template. So, some people, they don’t want to fill the template out. Then it’s not a priority. There has to be some onus on, hey, we agreed. I love the agreement upfront. We’re going to agree. This is the process. We want to keep this as a flexible project, but we all agreed; right? You kind of had that get-together. Is this what the requirement sees are the benefits? Yup. This is the objective. We do have a change control process. But to do the change control process, it’s not just, I want this. It’s I want this because it is going to give me this additional benefit. And what is that benefit?
BILL YATES: Yup.
SHANNON KEENAN: Time, resource, quicker to patient when we think about in pharma; right? You know, patient safety. And if people are not willing to put the details in there, then we’re not taking it to the board. But what is the next step? It gets reviewed by the team, and then it gets approved. There’s an approval, an impact assessment and approval, or maybe it happens later. So, I think if people understand, nobody wants it to go in a black hole and say, “Who’s the Wizard of Oz that said yes, or no?” If you kind of have that clarity, people then will feel more comfortable also because that innovation does happen through some of these change controls. So, you don’t want to not totally stop.
BILL YATES: Mm-hmm, yeah, you know, again, practically you want to have a log. You want to have some electronic record of all these decisions that were made because four months later somebody will come along with the same change request. You know, they’ll go, “Hey, I’ve got an idea.” And you’re like, wait a minute. That sounds familiar. Let’s go back and look. Oh, yeah, you know, we did talk about it. Here’s the decision we made then. Has anything changed in four months? No. Okay. You know, we don’t have to spend any more time on this.
SHANNON KEENAN: Exactly. Yeah. Having those decision logs, I think back to kind of what are those tools; right? The RAID logs, the decision logs that, yes, we discussed this. And exactly to your point, did anything change? No, it didn’t. Maybe it’s a new team member, and they didn’t know. But now you can go back and say, listen, I’m not saying no to you. That was a great idea. It was brought up. And I’m going to note that it was brought up a second time because maybe there’s something there for the next project that we’re missing.
Connect with Shannon
WENDY GROUNDS: Shannon, if our audience wants to connect with you or find out more about what you do, where’s the best place they can go?
SHANNON KEENAN: Yeah, best place to go is we have a website, www.artemisfactor.com. So, you could connect with me. You can kind of see what Artemis does. And we have case studies, testimonials. So always happy to help others that might have questions around project management or clients that have project needs.
BILL YATES: Shannon, thank you so much for helping us tackle this topic. This is one of those topics that has a playful name, but serious consequences. It’s great to have eyes-wide-open conversation about scope creep. So, thank you for what you shared with us.
SHANNON KEENAN: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. I’m excited to listen to this and the other podcasts that you have. And thank you for kind of bringing light to a lot of project management topics, that really go across industries.
Closing
WENDY GROUNDS: That’s it for us here on Manage This. Thank you so much for joining us today. You can visit us at Velociteach.com, where you can subscribe to this podcast and see a complete transcript of the show. Now, for our chance to give back, you have just earned your free PDUs by listening to this podcast. To claim them, go to Velociteach.com. Choose Manage This Podcast from the top of the page. Click the button you’ll see there that says Claim PDUs, and follow the steps. Until next time, stay curious, stay inspired, and keep tuning in to Manage This.
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